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  1. #151
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    @Keyan_TTK I remember someone was asking questions why that camo was the wrong color on Richelieu. Those are USN camo schemes, Measure 32, and they're supposed to be in light grey to dark grey, not blue.



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  2. #152
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    Here is Tier IX Alsace's secondaries compared to FDG. The latter has a secondary battery which I adore at Tier IX but Alsace's is very close competition.



    As you can see it's pretty close. The 150/152 guns have tradeoffs between the two.

    FDG with signal flag reaches out to 11.5km, Alsace out to 11.3km.



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  3. #153
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    I guess Tier X Republique has some armor issues.

    Thread in NA boards with that video and some other screenshots, replays.



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  4. #154
    Commander hidahos's Avatar
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    M.A.Mitscher: German HE have 1/4 penetration ratio instead of 1/6.
    French HE is regular if remeber right.

    Other: what is the strong point T8 Richelieu. Feels weaker than all(!) other T8 BBs especially in firepower.



  5. #155
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    @hidahos I don't think French HE has that benefit. What Alsace does get that FDG doesn't have is Fire Chance.
    FDG
    105mm @ 6% fire chance
    150mm @ 7% fire chance
    Alsace
    100mm @ 5% fire chance
    152mm @ 12% fire chance
    On top of the differences from my other post.

    Remember back when German BB Secondaries used to be Fire Starters? That's what Alsace is, but her 152 are slower firing than FDG, but 12% fire chance is good for that reload speed. It lets Alsace get oddities like this: 275 secondary hits on a Missouri during a brawl, but the shells did only 726 damage!


    But the fires set in this brawl cooked the USN BB. Usually I can get better raw damage with Alsace secondaries, but this was a Tier IX on a Tier IX. The ploy of Alsace peppering the target with HE+Fires before the secondaries brawl may be something I need to try out.

    Richelieu? TLDR: French BBs are closer to German BBs in terms of how guns are employed and their secondaries.

    Richelieu is really mediocre at 15km+, I hated being in a gunfight at those ranges with her. Firing her shells are like throwing grass in the wind at that range. Like Bismarck, she has to get closer, and her dispersion then becomes a lot better.

    LWM mentioned Gascogne being the same way.
    Lyon at Tier VII has horrible sigma but has 16 guns to make up for it.
    Bretagne, Normandie also suck at range, but it's not as bad because their BB peers in those tiers are pretty bad at range also.

    Alsace is not good in a high tier long range gunfight. 15" guns at Tier IX is laughable at 15km+. I've tried sticking to AP at range like a traditional BB, but my impressions are not good. I'd have to rely on HE at range against high tier BBs and Cruisers, switch to AP when you get 14km and less. When Alsace is top tier, the AP is fine against Tier VII, but the sturdier Cruisers and Battleships of high tier, that's a different story. Unless they show broadsides, you'll still punish them.

    Richelieu isn't all that.


    IIRC, some CCs like Notser mentioned having problems with making Richelieu work out.

    First and foremost, her gunnery is brawler oriented. She spectacularly fails at long range gunnery. Cut the range down and the guns are much more reliable. The secondaries are better than USN & IJN ones but German is still superior at Tier VIII. She reaches out to 10.8km with a full build + signal flag, but Bismarck goes 11.3km and has faster shooting guns. What really holds back Richelieu's secondaries are IMO, the long reload time of the 152mm guns. If those were faster she'd have something to lean on better. Alsace's faster firing 152s in a full build have very telling effects with landing fires, simply due to having 8.6 second reload (full build, including SBM3) compared to 10.8 seconds on Richelieu. The 105mm Richelieu guns fire at 3.6 seconds, my full secondaries Alsace fire at 2.2 seconds.

    Richelieu is great when top tier, but same or higher tiered heavy armor? Not really, not unless you close the range and can get flanking fire.

    I had 27 Random matches with Richelieu, had done alright with her but it felt like I was working a lot harder than I should be. I also hated having my guns constantly getting knocked out or 1 of them destroyed, which really sucks in a brawl.


    Last edited by M.A.Mitscher; 03-01-2018 at 11:37 PM.

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  6. #156
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    Another video of Republique's citadel problem.



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  7. #157
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    Some pictures of me using training room to citadel Tier X Republique with Tier V Furry Taco's 8" AP at about 13.7km
    https://imgur.com/a/RbGjn



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  8. #158
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    Contrasting the secondaries of GK & Republique, the 2 BBs with the monster secondaries in Tier X.


    A brawl between the two would be interesting.

    GK secondaries will do very reliable damage but Republique would keep her on fire.

    Republique has very fast shooting main battery and great turret traverse and with AR kicking it will go down to about 18 seconds. On the flip side, GK has her turtlebacks and can take the shots, whereas Republique has to protect her sides still.


    Last edited by M.A.Mitscher; 03-13-2018 at 05:41 AM.

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  9. #159
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    Regarding Republique and that citadel thing earlier, I have had her for a short bit and it's proving not to be a crucial issue if you do basic measures to protect your citadel. Yes, I even went to testing room with V Furutaka to citadel X Republique. Taking some shots from variety of angles the ship holds up fine. Maybe if I conveniently sit still and show perfect broadside to someone, I should be more worried, but one should be punished in that scenario. The ship is holding up fine.

    The weird main battery IMO is the biggest surprise. Before the line released, when the ship was labeled as "France" I had a lot of misgivings. WG has a very bad history with gun performance, usefulness of 8-gun Battleships at Tier VIII+. The troubled Bismarck / Tirpitz gunnery outside brawling ranges. Gascogne & Richelieu's performance past brawling ranges, past that 14km window. People's consistent hatred of 8-gun FDG at Tier IX (I personally loved her but everyone seems to loath her). The worst IMO is Conqueror 457mm configuration, as it offers nothing useful at all.

    With that history in mind, I expected far worse out of Republique's 431mm 4x2 gun setup. The speed is the selling point of the guns. It helps the penetration is still fabulous, I no longer have to deal with Cruisers face tanking my AP like at Tier VIII-IX. But the speed makes up for a lot. The gunnery is still more ideal for brawling ranges. If you want to engage 15km+ with Montana, Yamato, Conqueror, you'll start to struggle because 8 shells flying still means you drop more shots and do less damage, compared to Yamato marksmanship or volume of fire by Montana, Conqueror. The dispersion is actually quite decent, even without ASM1, but the 8 rifle count in a ranged duel, even with faster guns, is a problem. Cut the range and it's a different ball game.

    In the brawl, the fast firing guns mean you have less vulnerability time, i.e. you bait the fire of someone in a brawl to bounce their shells, and now you got a 28-32 second window to screw them over. Not with Republique when MBM3 is slotted. 21.1 second reloads, 17-18 when AR is kicking in. It feels like the guns are always ready when opportunity presents itself.

    Though Republique has issues at longer ranges, I felt WG pulled it off and made an odd gun setup at high tier work out right. Conqueror 457 should have had reasons to be useful with its 8-gun setup, but Republique's is done right.

    Tier X BB Penetration tables below.

    https://forum.worldofwarships.com/to...ration-graphs/

    Just keep in mind the typo, Lion w/419mm is supposed to be Conqueror w/457mm.

    At the brawling ranges Republique is designed for, the French 431mm are quite strong, stronger than even Yamato 460mm and Conqueror 457mm. Yamato catches up at 14km and starts pulling away further out. Another sign of the brawling nature of Republique.

    That pattern repeats itself with the French 15" guns at Tier VIII-IX, pretty fabulous penetration considering they're only 15", and emphasizes a brawling nature. French BBs eventually become more closely related to German BBs, at least in terms of main and secondary battery employment. Like German BBs you want to get close, but be careful, you don't have the German turtlebacks. In a short ranged fight, Republique holds up well enough.



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  10. #160
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    A cut & paste of a post I had in the NA boards when trying out Tier IX Alsace secondaries with and without IFHE.

    TLDR: IFHE is a yooge difference, but some of you may know that already.
    ===

    Played around with Alsace in Training Room to see the effectiveness of IFHE and without.

    Alsace Secondaries Build used: BFT, AFT, Manual Secondaries, no IFHE

    Upgrades used: SBM2 & 3

    2 minute time limit for secondaries to fire at each broadside Tier IX BB threat. 6-8km range. These BBs were left with plenty of HP to spare.

    Izumo 18k HP

    FDG 33k HP

    Iowa 32k HP

    Alsace 25k HP

    Lion 33k HP

    Izumo got the worse shake of fires. Be mindful that of these Tier IX BBs, Alsace and Lion are covered with poor 32mm plate and held up very well against the secondary shells. Literally Fires carried Alsace's secondaries damage.


    Do the same thing again, only this time with IFHE?

    Izumo, FDG were destroyed.

    Iowa, Alsace, Lion were left anywhere between 3k-8k HP.

    It's very simple, IFHE boosts Alsace Secondaries tremendously with direct damage. Without it, against same tier BBs, you will be wholly reliant on Fires to deal your secondaries damage. Without IFHE against BBs, your shells do poor, if any damage.


    The real question is if one is willing to go that far to have a Hardcore Secondaries Build.


    BFT, AFT, Manual Secondaries alone is 11 of your max 19 captain points.


    BFT, AFT, Manual Secondaries and IFHE is 15 of your max 19pts, remember you still need to give up 1 pt for Tier 1 and 2 for Tier 2 at the bare minimum.



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