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  1. #41
    Vice-Admiral Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyan_TTK View Post
    That said, her other expected good points aren't invalidated: good belt armour
    Penetration values aren't compressed in this game, unlike everything else (speed, range, etc...). So armour values on BBs aren't quite as valuable as they first seem, it's honestly more of a citadel position check than anything.

    and all stats are subject to change.
    The problem here is that it shows what their philosophy is when it comes to the overall balance of the line, and honestly it seems like it rarely changes drastically during development (save perhaps for RN CLs and maybe BB, and even then they left them their wolverine heal). And what it says currently is that they're okay with having a ship with one of the best TDS IRL being tied for worse at its tier, while having accuracy values similar to Bismarck while also having a slower reload (30s vs 26s). Remember that Bismarck has the worst DPM at T8.

    That's not a good sign. At all.

    Besides, remember Henri IV AA values and how everyone was screaming at them that they were wrong prior to release and they still released it on the live server with the wrong values? Yeah, my trust in WG isn't very high on this particular subject.





    Nagato 2015-03-22 / Mutsu 2015-03-22 / Hiei 2015-04-18 / Ooi 2015-05-30 / Musashi 2016-03-13 / Waiting for Tatsuta Kai Ni :<

  2. #42
    Admiral Keyan_TTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    Penetration values aren't compressed in this game, unlike everything else (speed, range, etc...). So armour values on BBs aren't quite as valuable as they first seem, it's honestly more of a citadel position check than anything.
    I'm well aware of that fact, which explains why the real-life concept of immunity zone doesn't work at all in game. And since immunity zones are the raison d'être of the different armour schemes, we are left to try to bow tank or angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    The problem here is that it shows what their philosophy is when it comes to the overall balance of the line, and honestly it seems like it rarely changes drastically during development (save perhaps for RN CLs and maybe BB, and even then they left them their wolverine heal). And what it says currently is that they're okay with having a ship with one of the best TDS IRL being tied for worse at its tier, while having accuracy values similar to Bismarck while also having a slower reload (30s vs 26s). Remember that Bismarck has the worst DPM at T8.

    That's not a good sign. At all.

    Besides, remember Henri IV AA values and how everyone was screaming at them that they were wrong prior to release and they still released it on the live server with the wrong values? Yeah, my trust in WG isn't very high on this particular subject.
    And I think you're putting a bit too much on preliminary data. Sure, my inner Frogaboo screams (internally, of course) because it wants the French BB line to powercreep the British one so hard it'll make the IJN DD line look good, thereby avenging Waterloo, Trafalgar and Mers-el Kebir in one fell swoop. Sure, I would rather have Strasbourg and Gascogne at T6 and T7 respectively, and better gun performance and TDS for Ritchie. But on the other hand, when not hard-pressed by external circumstances (*cough*Zeppelin for Gamescom*cough*), WG does make some nice work at balancing after the introduction of the RN CL line (which is crap until Emerald, then takes off to become borderline OP after). The French cruiser line is fun, even after the RoF nerf for the Light cruisers (and corresponding buff for the Heavy ones), the RN BB line seems fine, even if painful to play against. And some of the older lines got some love too: The trio Pepsi-NO-Balti, which was at first Purgatory between all the goodness Cleveland brought and the one Des Moines promised, is now much more viable.

    So, instead of raising pitchforks and decreeing La Patrie en Danger, let's wait and see what ride WG is designing, try it and decide then. Besides, if it's so bad, it can't get any worse, right?

    .... Right?!?

    *distant voice from WG's design studio* : "Hold my vodka, comrade. The French will pay for stealing our carriers!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    And here is Normandie's statcard!





    She's at T6, as expected. So for now the line runs T5 Bretagne> T6 Normandie> T7 Lyon> T8 Richelieu. T4 is probably Courbet, T9 Algérie, as for T3, a modified Danton with the wing 240mm guns replaced by 305mm guns?



  3. #43
    Vice-Admiral DLRevan's Avatar
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    Argh my eyes....

    Are.....are these real.....they're battleships so I must have them....but....


    Murakumo 17th June 2015
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  4. #44
    Admiral Keyan_TTK's Avatar
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    @DLRevan
    Normandie is a fairly close approximation of her appearance, as designed. WG mostly flipped the midship turret. As I said, Lyon is a Frankenstein monster, a mishmash of all the French battleships with a side dish of Gangut. Bretagne is pretty much representative of pre-WWI French ship design, and, to be frank, they made good progress since their first pre-dreadnoughts, such as this one:



    - - - Updated - - -

    Now I'm afraid I will trigger Mobius again, but the SEA group posted what could be the French battleship tree line:

    So far 4 out of 8 French battleship has been announced.

    With the rest 4, the complete tech tree will be:

    Tier III - Turenne

    A modified Danton-class battleship with 6×2 turrets. It is largely based on the historical counterpart.

    Tier IV - Courbet

    Wikipedia to a real ship.)

    Tier V - Bretagne

    Tier VI - Normandie

    Tier VII - Lyon

    Tier VIII - Richelieu

    Tier IX - Alsace

    I presume, to be precise, it's Alsace n°3 with 3×4 380mm guns. WG didn't make 406mm guns or 380mm triples for French. So theoretically it is the only possibility.

    Tier X - France

    The ultimate masterpiece (hype-hype) from Saint Petersburg with 431mm/50 quadruple guns. See below for gun & shell characteristics, it is DAMN AWESOME:

    Damage: 14500; Air drag: 0.35; Shell weight: 1321kg; Krupp: 2550; Muzzle velocity: 840m/s

    Vive la France!
    > No Strasbourg, replaced with two (ugly) paper-ish designs
    > Gimped Ritchie at T8
    > Alsace with only one gun configuration
    > the T10 with a phantom gun, which isn't the 45cm gun which design was being researched during the 1920's

    - - - Updated - - -

    The WoWS Devblog has published Bretagne's data:

    ST, French battleship Bretagne, tier V.

    Hit points - 38300, plating - 19 mm, belt - 160 - 250 mm.
    Main battery - 5x2 340 mm. Firing range - 16.8 km. HE damage - 4700, AP damage - 9500. Reload time 30 s., 180 degree turn time - 60 s., maximum dispersion - 231 m. HE initial velocity - 921 m/s. AP initial velocity - 780 m/s. Sigma count - 1.8.
    Maximum speed - 19.9 kt. Turning circle radius - 780 m., rudder shift time - 17.5 s.
    Surface detectability - 15.3 km, air detectability - 9.2 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke - 12.8 km.
    Anti-torpedo defense damage reduction - 10%.

    Available consumables:
    Slot 1 - Damage Control Party
    Slot 2 - Repair Party

    All stats are listed without crew and upgrade modifiers.



  5. #45
    Vice-Admiral Mobius's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how Normandie will be competitive at T6. Same number of guns as Fusou/New Mexico/Arizona, worse HE, likely inferior penetration and no seaplanes. AA seems non existent too.

    Bretagne doesn't seem very competitive either. 250mm belt and non existant TDS with lower than average health pool... There's a reason why most people expected it to be T4.

    Alsace with 3x4 380mm is kinda lame. It was the design that was the least likely to be chosen. I at least hope they'll allow us to chose with 3x3 406mm, since it was the favored design (even if they would have likely settled with the 3x3 380mm design, but pragmatism doesn't exist in WoWS so...)

    Sure, my inner Frogaboo screams (internally, of course) because it wants the French BB line to powercreep the British
    I don't want powercreep at all, I just want a solid, not gimmicky line. That's all. Eight 380mm with 30s reload means that Richelieu has amongst the worse alpha of T8, German BB accuracy (i.e. not good) and the worse DPM at its tier with no significant advantages elsewhere (speed boost is too situational). I don't think being worried about that is being excessive, especially when the whole line seems pretty questionable, and especially when WG has an history of being... mediocre at best when it comes to French ship (Dunkerque can be fun but it's not competitive and has gotten powercreeped hard, French cruisers have no team utility, none of the most requested premiums have been released or even acknowledged). Give me good accuracy on Richelieu and I'll be more than content with the low alpha and bad DPM.

    And it's Ouiaboo, not Frogaboo.


    Last edited by Mobius; 11-07-2017 at 08:26 PM.



    Nagato 2015-03-22 / Mutsu 2015-03-22 / Hiei 2015-04-18 / Ooi 2015-05-30 / Musashi 2016-03-13 / Waiting for Tatsuta Kai Ni :<

  6. #46
    Admiral Keyan_TTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    I'm not sure how Normandie will be competitive at T6. Same number of guns as Fusou/New Mexico/Arizona, worse HE, likely inferior penetration and no seaplanes. AA seems non existent too.

    Bretagne doesn't seem very competitive either. 250mm belt and non existant TDS with lower than average health pool... There's a reason why most people expected it to be T4.
    I have to agree with that assessment. Courbet may have been commissioned in 1913 and Bretagne in 1916, that does not make them the French counterparts of Orion and Iron Duke. Pre WWI French naval industry couldn't even keep pace, building was slow and ships were delivered late, so the basic designs were badly outdated. Most of the proposed tech tree ships are one Tier too high until Richelieu.



  7. #47
    Vice-Admiral DLRevan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    I'm not sure how Normandie will be competitive at T6. Same number of guns as Fusou/New Mexico/Arizona, worse HE, likely inferior penetration and no seaplanes. AA seems non existent too.

    Bretagne doesn't seem very competitive either. 250mm belt and non existant TDS with lower than average health pool... There's a reason why most people expected it to be T4.

    Alsace with 3x4 380mm is kinda lame. It was the design that was the least likely to be chosen. I at least hope they'll allow us to chose with 3x3 406mm, since it was the favored design (even if they would have likely settled with the 3x3 380mm design, but pragmatism doesn't exist in WoWS so...)


    I don't want powercreep at all, I just want a solid, not gimmicky line. That's all. Eight 380mm with 30s reload means that Richelieu has amongst the worse alpha of T8, German BB accuracy (i.e. not good) and the worse DPM at its tier with no significant advantages elsewhere (speed boost is too situational). I don't think being worried about that is being excessive, especially when the whole line seems pretty questionable, and especially when WG has an history of being... mediocre at best when it comes to French ship (Dunkerque can be fun but it's not competitive and has gotten powercreeped hard, French cruisers have no team utility, none of the most requested premiums have been released or even acknowledged). Give me good accuracy on Richelieu and I'll be more than content with the low alpha and bad DPM.

    And it's Ouiaboo, not Frogaboo.

    Gimmicky?

    *Looks at quad guns everywhere*

    Eh.....right.

    Actually since many of the older ships underperform next to their counterparts from other nations, I think some kind of gimmick to make them viable is ultimately needed, no matter how the numbers change. This is less needed for the upper tiers. Kind of a reverse of RN BBs, they have some gimmicks at upper tiers but are more standard in lower.


    I'd argue against French cruisers having no team utility. Sure they don't have an obvious consumable, but they are staple flankers/harassers in Clan wars, and I have seen whole teams chase after (and fail) them in high tier, literally losing matches to the antics of one French bote.


    Murakumo 17th June 2015
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  8. #48
    Admiral Keyan_TTK's Avatar
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    It seems the Devblog's data of Richelieu is only the Stock version. SEA Group has datamined Ritchie's stats, and they are more palatable. It's probably a safe bet to presume it's the case for the other ships too.

    Her Spood,... er Speed Boost is Charles Martel's, so you can expect a max speed of about 38 knots. Iowa, osoi~!
    63700HP, 32 knots, 16sec rudder shift, firing range 25km, this is already a bit better. Slot in the two Rudder mods (if you're brave), add in the Spood Beest, and you'll be hard to torp.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DLRevan View Post
    I'd argue against French cruisers having no team utility. Sure they don't have an obvious consumable, but they are staple flankers/harassers in Clan wars, and I have seen whole teams chase after (and fail) them in high tier, literally losing matches to the antics of one French bote.
    No obvious consumable outside of Speed Boost, you mean. I'm playing the speed-boosted like longer-ranged Russian DDs with a citadel. Harass the enemy, and if you're getting targeted or focus fired, activate Spood Beest, and kite while throwing flame bombs.


    Last edited by Keyan_TTK; 11-08-2017 at 09:21 AM.

  9. #49
    Vice-Admiral DLRevan's Avatar
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    Well that's exactly how they are to be played. And speed boost isn't necessary all the time either.

    Don't forget BBs can take speed flag too.



  10. #50
    Vice-Admiral Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLRevan View Post
    Gimmicky?

    *Looks at quad guns everywhere*

    Eh.....right.
    Speed boost, not the quads. You can't argue that it's anywhere near as useful as German BB's hydro.

    The quads... Eh. They are what they are I guess, I have no particular love for them and I don't really feel excited about them taking over other designs like on Alsace. At least Richelieu and France will have the bow on advantage at their respective tier against BBs that aren't Yamato I guess.

    Actually since many of the older ships underperform next to their counterparts from other nations, I think some kind of gimmick to make them viable is ultimately needed, no matter how the numbers change.
    They could have found a unique traits that's not gimmicky. I've argued multiple times in favor of giving French BBs lower than average drag shell. It's something that's always useful, that synchronizes well with BB gameplay and isn't OP. Additionally, it would be very useful on French DDs, since they'll have muzzle velocities similar to US DDs. It would've been a very easy way to distinguish the two lines, and again while being useful at all times and not OP.

    they are staple flankers/harassers in Clan wars
    On the EU server, H4 have pretty much been replaced by Moskva due to its superior gun performance, tankiness and team utility from what I read. So not everyone seems to agree that they're that good in competitive games.

    and I have seen whole teams chase after (and fail) them in high tier, literally losing matches to the antics of one French bote.
    Depending on the stupidity of random player on the enemy's team in order for a consumable to be useful to your team is not really a good argument IMO. Smoke can always be useful to your team. Radar can always be useful for you team. Hydro can always be useful to your team. DFAA requires carriers to be present, but if they are then it's also useful to your team. Speed boost isn't.

    firing range 25km
    Which is frankly useless. Anything beyond 21km is essentially wasted. Even in Yamato, I usually balk at firing beyond this range because it's a crapshoot, and that's with a ship that has more guns, better sigma and the best overmatch values in the entire game. Richelieu with its Bismarck like accuracy, low barrel count and average overmatch value is unlikely to do significant damage against anything at these ranges. It's even dangerous, because you just announced to the entire map where you are and that your guns are now on CD.

    I'd give up any range beyond 21km for better accuracy/sigma any day of the week.


    Last edited by Mobius; 11-08-2017 at 04:59 PM.



    Nagato 2015-03-22 / Mutsu 2015-03-22 / Hiei 2015-04-18 / Ooi 2015-05-30 / Musashi 2016-03-13 / Waiting for Tatsuta Kai Ni :<

 

 

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