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  1. #11
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
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    @ofi123: Honestly, that just makes me wonder why there's K2 limit in the first place. Don't have a K2 limit (or K3 designation) and no need for work-arounds. "Problem" solved.


    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  2. #12
    Marshal Admiral ofi123's Avatar
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    @goesto11

    That's just my speculation from the line graph. If anything, I would have wished they retain the k2 increase rate before.



  3. #13
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
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    @ofi123: Ah, fair enough.


    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  4. #14
    Captain Ren's Avatar
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    Personally I believe they should stop releasing trophy DDs as often and stop releasing DE altogether. Focus on K2. Getting 1 or 2 new ships per event is enough.



  5. #15
    Marshal Admiral ofi123's Avatar
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    @goesto11

    Ah found it. I was horribly mistaken on almost everything. Only the part of k2 rate I can't be sure about, since after checking this k2 line includes every 2nd and above remodels which means kai ABCD, k2/ABCD, k3, renames. Will need serious data crunching to isolate only k2.

    Quote Originally Posted by ofi123 View Post

    @Ren

    They won't. Those trophies DD/DEs are farming bait to keep players playing instead of just bulldozing through the event, otherwise how do they deplete the 300k stockpiles?

    As for focusing on k2, it's less of them not having the resources to keep the pace up but because of them keeping the rate steady for 1) balancing and 2) which I assume the longevity of the game. Pretty much every few k2s and above will cause some other ships to be outdated if they want to introduce new stuff, if they have too many k2s in a row that are balanced or weaker to the current powerhouses that players have little to no reason to remodel them there will surely be players complaining. Looks at Kagero class k2s for example.



  6. #16
    Vice-Admiral DLRevan's Avatar
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    @goesto11 It's interesting that on one hand you describe, pretty accurately, that Kongou class ships are still useable and good value, even if they're not the best possible you can use. But then you have a problem with Kai + ships which are much the same thing, usable in a general sense, and even excel in their specialties when that comes up.

    You can the marketing effect "is all there is", but lets face it, the Kongou class sisters are 4 of the most ringed ships in the game, they have been in every anime, they have been in almost any piece of marketing material out there for this game. It is highly important that they are kept up to date. And anime is the one biggest marketing tool any franchise has in Japan, so Shigure should get something too.

    We've seen the effect of powercreep, and there's also the reality of the time required to let merchandising catch up with new remodels. And, a lot of players who traditionally have materials for all new remodels are starting to fall behind on medals and the like. So while I get everyone wants more choices and also wants their favorites time to shine, as I do, I also understand the reason they take the pace they have. I may have an issue with the game's balance, it's gimmicks, its new mechanics and so on, but not the K2 or other remodel pacing? Not so much.


    Murakumo 17th June 2015
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  7. #17
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
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    @ofi123 No problem and no need to do all the number crunching. I get the idea. Still find it odd that devs decided to go with some K2 cap and just add more categories (Kai a/b/c/d and K2 variants). Seems to be more focused on certain ships that I would have thought if there is going to be a K2 cut off. Not sure how I feel about this, but also nothing I can do about it either. :/

    Anyway, do appreciate the info.

    ----
    @DLRevan: Surely you're not suggesting that the degree of difference between Kongou K2 and other FBB is equivalent to say your standard Kai IJN DD vs. K2 DD. Samidare Kai, for example, is no where near as close to top K2 DD. So that's the difference - matter of degree, and it's significant.


    Yes, there are a few Kai DD (mostly newer) that have some gimmick which at times can be useful. Still there are a LOT of DD and even CL & CA long due for a Kai 2. Again, NOT a fan of these Kai a/b/c/d.../z stuff. However, apparently, it's part of Tanaka's plan so here to stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLRevan View Post
    You can the marketing effect "is all there is", but lets face it, the Kongou class sisters are 4 of the most ringed ships in the game, they have been in every anime, they have been in almost any piece of marketing material out there for this game. It is highly important that they are kept up to date. And anime is the one biggest marketing tool any franchise has in Japan, so Shigure should get something too.
    Again so what when it comes to the issues I'm discussing? All you did was reinforce my point that this is being done primarily if not entirely for marketing reasons. Popular ship so lets put them near/at the top. Again, RIP Bismarck. Sure glad I never went ahead and luck modded her. Also, I have questions. If the rationale is popularity, is Kongou more popular than the rest of the Kongou-class, including Haruna (I guess % ringed is the metric here). If so, then shouldn't Kongou K2c be THE "go to" NB TCI BB now - including high built in luck (40+ if not 50) along with total NB firepower?

    Now Haruna does have more luck, presumably because survived longer in the war, but then again Takao made it through the war and has a paltry 10 luck so who the hell knows what luck is based upon. Hiryuu K2 has 50 luck because, I guess wasn't targeted initially at Midway, but is that worth FIFTY to survive a day longer, if that? I-19 missed intended target with 3 of 6 torps, and the torps which MISSED the intended target still sunk a DD AND damaged a BB. How the hell is that not super lucky? But nah, 13 luck for Iku because based upon Fubuki 4-koma, she sank about a year later. Uh, again, Hiryuu... 50 luck...so.... Anyway, if popularity is going to be the primary driver here, then *shrug*, why not give Kongou K2c 40 or 50 luck if she's the most popular of the popular Kongou-class? Giving the whole class bump in stats anyway for that reason, apparently, so most popular = best is at least consistent.

    As for Shigure, like her enough, but not a fav. Still, fine, anime protagonist. In that case, Fubuki really didn't fair well as first season anime protagonist. Surely you're not going to suggest that Fubuki K2 is a more useful/better ship than built in NB TCI Shigure K2? So we should give Fubuki K2 a letter as well and boost stats retroactively as former anime protagonist. Actually, Fubuki was certainly the face of the game when it started (default starter ship and all), so even more in line with your given rationale here. If only she was most popular ship as well. Then, she could be THE best DD bar none.

    Seriously, if the rationale for these changes is popular, "game poster girl" and/or "was in anime a lot", again, why not at this point? Now that I think about it, Sendai had a prominent role in the first anime season, so given her OK-ish, but certainly not great K2 (not as useful as Shigure K2 either), introduce Sendai K2(letter). How about Jintsuu K2 levels of NB offensive power? That would be nice. Sendai is the "NB-baka" CL after all, so fits the character theme as well.

    I DO get the marketing/business aspect. I just don't think that should be a driver/rationale for such changes. Popularity (or dev favorite(s)) isn't necessarily, if at all, a great way to structure game play balance and design. To add the above examples, if hypothetically, Kongou-class lose out to power creep 2 years later, are we going to get K2C War Mod IV if they still rank highest in popularity? It's just not a good method, and while perhaps you make some short term financial gains, how much and for how long is uncertain. The popularity principle is now set (if it wasn't already), and I wonder how long that will work out. Sure, may be good for a significant portion for whom the boost is pandering, but not for all, if even a clear majority. There still remain ships people do like left on the shelf and/or maybe later get a hand-wave level remodel 'cause, apparently, not popular enough (or dev favorite, that may be a factor as well). Not only that, I have to wonder about just what gains will be actually made due to Kongo-class K2(letter) and/or Shigure K2(letter) vs. keeping as is. Didn't the game get a significant player boost with the first anime season? Surely you're not going to suggest the bulk of those new players was due to a very mediocre, even at the time, Fubuki K2.

    TL:DR = Is this the biggest issue facing the game? Obviously not, but I don't think it's comparatively rendered negligible, and thus doesn't deserve discussion either. I agree with you that there are other concerns to address which are more pressing. Still, it all adds up - the good and the bad. So far game still nets positive for me, but daily grind for almost 5 years along with some issues are not helping my interest/retention level. So yes, it adds to the negative side of the equation to some degree when K2 ships get K2(letter) while ships who have been around for a long time like Takao are left waiting.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @ofi123: Decided to add a few thoughts on your reply to Ren.

    1) True, trophy DD/DE give players something to do after bulldozing events. Also for those lagging a bit something while waiting I suppose though have to watch resources. However, "trophy" DD isn't quite the same as when say Isokaze introduced. Historic bonuses once again. Quite helpful to have those "trophy" USN DD this time around. Maybe if you have enough luck modded ships, not an issue, but for me, glad to have SB Roberts and Johnston (though Johnston just sat there & got hit most of the time >_<). There's the collection aspect as well, but with more and more emphasis on historic bonus, that meh-stat "trophy DD" may actually be quite important with a high enough bonus in future events.

    As for depleting cap resources, personally, I've never understood that "problem", but I tend to be hoarder in games (e.g. I have over 2700 better long distance arrows stockpiled in KCD. Seriously.). In KC, I've still got a lot to do so cap is a struggle. Even if I was at cap, it's not a "problem", but rather "great, don't have to nanny resource expeditions as much". That's not a part of the game I enjoy. Do it because necessary. Not sure what to say here. If cap resources are a problem, then perhaps go for the "Perfect Complete Fleet". Get all ships in the game, then max out luck on every single ship. That will take a while and plenty of resources burned.

    2) You mention that "if they have too many k2s in a row that are balanced or weaker to the current powerhouses that players have little to no reason to remodel them there will surely be players complaining. Looks at Kagero class k2s for example." Two things. First, I'd think that those who are hard-core would still K2 ships no matter what. Not like there's a downside and hard-core will certainly have levels & resources. Did you not K2 your Kagero class DD?

    If more casual type players, not sure how many are "only stats matter" types (not always, but pure power-gamers (i.e. stat focused) tend to be more hard core). Also, even if one is hard core, I'd bet for most who play this game, the kanmusu/ship-girl theme is still a factor to some degree. It's hard to imagine the game this popular without kanmusu (and abyssals fall into that category as well). Imagine KC with no ship-girls at all. Just a RL ship silhouette of with name on it for icon, maybe a few generic battle voice-overs and... that's it. Much different, and to me much more boring. I'm in the middle. Stats matter, but so does character. Ideally, both match up, but not all that often which can be frustrating on occasion.

    So IMO another motivation is simply there may a ship-girl one prefers that's now more capable. Maybe, maybe not, but the net result of "bunching" and less outliers = more player options (albeit probably limited by historic bonuses for events). That's one reason TO go with K2 on more ships. Sure there's going to be some power-creep, but much of it IMO is the devs own making. Ise-class K2 would have been quite good and power creep even without the 5th slot, but I guess Tanaka likes his Ise-class. To me, 5th slot makes a lot more sense on a very expensive and massive ships = Yamato-class (and maybe Shinano if ever in game). Rest could have stayed at 4 slots which limits power creep. JMO though and Tanaka don't care what I think.

    As for running out of K2, more ships being introduced than we get K2 annually so not a problem.


    Last edited by goesto11; 07-01-2019 at 05:43 AM.
    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  8. #18
    Vice-Admiral DLRevan's Avatar
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    You make it sound like game balance and marketing are incompatible. The fact is that 3 out of the 4 kongou class are the among the weakest and least utility battleships in the game before these new remodels, and that is considering they already have k2. That is a sorry state no matter how you slice it.

    At the same time, marketing is extremely important considering this game still probably doesn't make much at all from just cash shop sales. So if you say that marketing should not be a primary or even at least a deciding factor for how the game should advance, you're asking for the death of this game. Much as we'd like to think simply adding more foreign ships or k2s for essentially niche popularity characters is sustainable....it's not.

    The anime is not just meant to boost the games playerbase (to begin with the game is largely a marketing engine for the franchise), and the first anime is an introduction to alot of characters, not just Fubuki. How about putting it another way, even considering she's a MC, would they have been able to sell bog standard Fubuki Kai figures instead of K2? I think not. And they largely didn't. From a thematic point of view, they needed to take one of the starters, in other words they took the promotion-ally crippling choice of Fubuki and made the most of it. Shigure is a much better choice but.....

    ...Shigure and kongou class k2s are six years old. They're heavily outdated both for the game and for franchising. Even their art is out of date to their respective artist's styles. Both merchandise and fanworks have featured that image of them for that long, new change is good. You're going to have to accept that as more prominent characters, something needs to be done about that. We're not lacking for variety at almost 100 k2s in-game.


    Last edited by DLRevan; 07-01-2019 at 08:44 AM.
    Murakumo 17th June 2015
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  9. #19
    Marshal Admiral ofi123's Avatar
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    @goesto11

    For trophy DDs they are never an issue for me. But for those players with limited slot sizes (and there are F2P veterans with default 100) they do pose an issue for them. Historical bonuses were added flavor to the game, but also a way to make trophy DDs "valuable" outside of pure collection and waifu purposes. It's much more simpler to increase the bonus than to give those ships a kai ABCD after all.

    For depleting resources, it comes down to 2 specific points which both hinges on luck. First is the drop rate of new ship in event. If someone can be unlucky enough to spend 500k fuel solely on farming Fletcher, that in itself should be an issue.
    The next is the recent power spike of the event that is built with friend fleet in mind that caused many pioneers to literally ran out of fuel. For us waiting players it's fine, but for those pioneers who gives us the valuable event information it costed them more than previous events.


    For the k2, I'm not saying I don't want more k2 to be introduced faster but I understand why they won't. Personally I would want them to increase the rate of k2, either at the rate of ships introduced or a couple more than that. And that's just k2, not counting kai ABCD, k2 ABCD, k3 like they are currently doing.

    It isn't just stats, but also equipment and cost for k2.
    Consideration of power creep, stats is basic but stock equipment add another layer.
    Consideration of stock equipment is not just a single dimension, but multiple including the schedule of equipment implementation as well as whether the cost and requirement of the k2 the equipment is going to be on.
    Consideration of cost involves not only power creep and equipment, but also BP/AR/gunmat/planemats/normal mats (given the mat cost this days) that is generated that needs to have leeway to allow newer players to catch up eventually.
    Of course equipment and cost can be supplemented or alleviated by quests, but they need to not give so much that the veterans doesn't bother at all.

    And even ignoring all that, once they k2 everyone and need to start k3 everyone. The event power level will spike further and newer players will find it even harder to keep up. Even right now it's pretty hard for new players to catch up, though it's more of the BP/AR/gunmat/planemats issue than anything else.


    @DLRevan

    RIP the forgotten one of the early faces of Kancolle, Shimakaze.



  10. #20
    Vice-Admiral DLRevan's Avatar
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    @ofi123 Once you're out, you're out for good

    Well, seriously speaking, I think her importance went down when KC started to naturally distinguish itself next to comparable games through.....less fanservice-y designs. That's not to say they don't exist anymore or aren't important...or aren't FBI magnets anymore (side-long glance at Maestrale....), but clearly its no longer a big selling point. There's been very little continuity in the marketing of Shimakaze since the days of her manga series and her mediocre presence in the anime.

    They could always redesign her with a k2, but I think there's not much reason for it now. She probably won't be in the anime, and clearly the anime is filling a lot of the remodel quota for awhile (Shigure, Yahagi, Haruna). She will also exceed the specs of almost all our DDs presumably as a k2, so there's powercreep to think about when we're still working through Kagerou and Yuugumo class. That's not to say I don't think her time will come, but maybe not now.


    Last edited by DLRevan; 07-02-2019 at 05:12 AM.
    Murakumo 17th June 2015
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