Hello & Welcome to our community. Is this your first visit? Register
  • News & Announcements
      As a counter measurement to Ad spam, newly registered users are required to create a thread in the Introduction Forum before allowing to be able to reply and create threads.
      Please allow some time for posts to be approved. We thank you for your patience on this matter.
Bookmark Thread
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 23 of 23
  1. #21
    Marshal Admiral ofi123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    18,452
    Rep
    223
    Mentioned
    2674 Post(s)
    @DLRevan

    I don't think it's due to importance but more of power creep. Even with only being a kai she's better than some kai ni DDs so much so that there's some players using her for TCI. The Yuugumo class only got their kai ni considerably recently, so I can see Shimakaze's kai ni being delayed when the devs realized the games longevity.



  2. #22
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Server
    Paramushir Anchorage
    Posts
    5,006
    Rep
    177
    Mentioned
    1678 Post(s)
    @DLRevan: Sorry for the long reply, but there's a lot to this IMO. If too TL:DR, then there's a summary of sorts at the end.

    You misunderstand, I'm not saying that marketing based decisions and game balance decisions must always be mutually exclusive. I'm saying that marketing decision analysis do not focus on game play/balance because they are marketing decisions - decisions designed to generate revenue and/or gain players (and thus more revenue). There are marketing campaigns around loot boxes because those generate a lot of income, but not so great for game play. This isn't a loot box situation, but that is illustrative of the point marketing decisions =/= game balance analysis. Two different things. Now may a marketing decision have a positive impact on game play balance - sure. But it may NOT as well.

    How about just maybe focus on making the best game possible? A good product sells itself. Some examples: Very old game, but Diablo II has a large fan base to the point that Blizzard is planning (last I checked) to develop a Diablo II remaster. Baldur's Gate series has a fairly good fan base as well. Last Baldur's gate release 2001. Very good game (played it and Diablo II), and now there is a Baldur's Gate III in development due to persistent demand. WoW was originally released in 2004/2005. Never played, but certainly many thought was a very good game - sure popular enough, and now in August, Wow Classic is going to be released. Red Dead Redemption was released in 2010. It was very well received. HIGHLY anticipated release of RD2 8 years later sold 15 million copies in UNDER 2 WEEKS. Kingdom Come Deliverance was a kickstarter game from a brand new studio that suffered delays and had some notable bug issues upon release. Still, the core game was good enough that even with those issues it sold over 1 million copies in two weeks and over 2 million (maybe more) overall - all from a fledgling studio without much marketing. Bugs have been ironed out and devs made improvements based upon player feedback. Playing it (about 140 hours over past few months - still doing KC primarily). It's a good game IMO, and Warhorse Studios established themselves by doing just that - making a good game. TL:DR = Focus on making the best game you can and players will come & support it if you are successful.

    It's not binary either, and I never suggested it to be such. You can have plenty of marketing, but again, devs should focus on improving game play, not marketing pandering based on popularity (which is what this sounds like). Granted JMO, but it's hardly the "death" of the game if Kongou-class don't get K2(letter) ASAP. Same goes for Shigure K2(letter).

    As for "bog standard Fubuki Kai" - "bog standard" is not helping the popularity of other characters either if that's a concern. If the art work is a problem (and sure, it's a factor in this type of game), then just update it - for ALL who need that. Problem solved. Didn't Shouhou and Oboro get an updated Kai artwork? How popular are they? Speaking of artwork, my apologies in advance if mistaken, but I seem to recall when people criticized Intrepid's artwork, you posted it wasn't a big deal and the criticism overblown. If that's correct, now you're arguing about outdated artwork because popular? Maybe Intrepid might be a bit more popular with better artwork. Same goes with say Takao, Atago & "potato" DD. Already popular should NOT be the criteria for updated artwork. The criteria should be whether current artwork is good enough regardless of kanmusu popularity.

    Bit OT, but while Fubuki wasn't (and isn't) the most popular ship, I thought she was the right choice for FL. Remember, Fubuki was the "face of the game" when released - default starter ship and all. Poi was more popular (as was Shimakaze, though in the anime Poi's character got much better treatment than Shimakaze. >_>), but I got "poi'd" out watching the show. Think one episode had 17 poi's. Glad she wasn't the lead character. There were multiple issues with Season 1 anime due to writing/direction rather than Fubuki character archetype. The good-hearted, earnest, power of friendship, underdog character is common in anime and works just fine with quality writing and execution.

    It's all down to writing and execution for any show. Miho from Girls und Panzer isn't all that much different of a character type than Fubuki, and she worked out just fine. Maybe Fubuki's not as popular as Shigure (who's not all that dynamic either as a character), but suggesting that Fubuki was "promotionally crippling" strikes me as hyperbolic. I don't see Shigure as that much of a better choice, frankly. She might turn out to be, but I'd put that down to improved writing and lessons learned from a shaky season 1 (it had its good moments along with bad). Again, if it's just the character design, then just change the bloody artwork. Problem solved. Furthermore, at the time Fubuki didn't have a K2. Kongou-class and Shigure already do, so not the same situation. If Kongou-class and Shigure did not have a K2, then not an issue.

    - "Much as we'd like to think simply adding more foreign ships or k2s for essentially niche popularity characters is sustainable....it's not."

    Why? Seriously, why? A good character is good character, and a sufficient number of players will like them because of that. Maybe some of the "niche" characters might gain in popularity if there wasn't as much hyper-focus on a small group of characters. In fact, might help a lot if with more high-end K2 - not necessary dethroning current top ship(s), but certainly players will be more likely to use better ships with better stats. Same goes for artwork. Don't see why there has to be only a few favored ships here.

    No more foreign ships in the game WILL kill it because otherwise your event reward ships are going to be what, DD, DE/CDS, auxiliary, etc. OK, Shinano, then what? Bunch of what-ifs? How long is that going to last? KC has gone on too long to just use IJN ships. There's a good reason that KC clone games started off with ships from various navies. Again, I do think that if Tanaka knew how popular KC would be, very well may have done so as well. Simply not enough IJN capital ships to go on for years and years and players like getting those. Can't imagine that many players being satisfied with only "trophy" DD, DE, AO, etc. Yay, I cleared a RNG filled, salt inducing final EO map for a third AO that I barely use as a class anyway. As for "niche" - again back to popularity, current popularity, and again, well maybe won't be so niche then with a K2 and/or better artwork if needed. You seem to treat this as some zero sum game for some reason. People can like more than just the few same ships.

    I've used a lot digital ink already, and I suspect we are not going to find much common ground on this - which is fine, people have different opinions on things. TL:DR version of all this for me is that while I agree that Kongou-Class/Shigure K2(letter) isn't the biggest issue facing the game specifically, it's part of a bigger issue (K2/future remodels), and I do not like the hyper-focus on favored ships "because popular" marketing driven game development.

    ---

    RE. Shimakaze, I'd say it's not the fanservice aspect. KC rocketed in popularity with whatever fanservice there was. Also, what do you mean about "importance", exactly? Was popular, but now a detriment or something to be cast aside? I do agree about her getting bad treatment in the anime. That's the writers/directors fault to go with caricature, coked-up, wacky Shimakaze. That's not helping with popularity. Back to fanservice in general...

    - "...aren't FBI magnets anymore (side-long glance at Maestrale....)"

    Really? The FBI is worried about KanColle? Is there any verified FBI investigation for this game? Let me be clear, I definitely would prefer less Maestrale looking DD let alone what we get with DE/CDS. I certainly prefer the older-looking DD designs. However, (A) again KC not some hentai game, and (B) any issue would be due to how young they look. FBI doesn't care about Musashi/Musashi Kai or Kongou Kai, Hamakaze, etc. Shimakze isn't that big of a deal either. KC's toned things down somewhat, but have to wonder how much of that was due to player feedback (again, wasn't a problem when the game rocketed in popularity), or just part of the ongoing current PC culture war in gaming (plenty of examples with that, including Sony, but let's not bring politics here).

    I don't care if devs give Shimakze art with less fanservice or the same (a bit older look would be good though). While an updated look may be nice, it doesn't change the fact that DD NB DA is a thing of the past. She's got good stats - warranted based upon RL ship design, but once again, who are first DD luck mod choices? Ayanami (with good default high luck so don't need much) and Poi - still reigning DD for NB power. There are also now a lot of other options at the 158 NB power level - Asashio K2 (160 and most go with K2D anyway because DD NB DA is useless for hard maps and not great default luck), Kagero K2, Shiranui K2, Kawakaze K2, Naganami K2 (good choice with 30 luck vs. 12 for Shimakaze).

    TL:DR = I agree with ofi123 - it's due to more new DD options for NB power along with power creep in that it's all about NB TCI these days for harder maps.

    ==========================
    @ofi123: Oh I agree, about historic bonuses, though I'd say not only for some flavor and have players sortie ships normally not worth using, but also to motivate players to buy slots & have larger fleets. At this point, I'd say RIP days of 100 sloters - at least for Hard if not Medium as well (depends upon event). Understand that slots cost money, but if there's one thing I don't have a problem with, it's inducing players to buy some extra slots. Core theme of the game IMO is building a fleet. Plus, DMM/KDKW have to pay the bills somehow. Rings (and waifu bonus) are an option, but shouldn't be necessary either. Even more so with items like RE + Goddess and consumable purchase in general when it comes to events. Too P2W for me.

    I'm not insensitive to 100 sloters, but to me, when we have a game that started with what - 100 ships or something and now has over 200 as we get 18 or more ships introduced each year, larger fleet requirements and thus larger roster size is just an natural evolution of the game. Vet 100 sloters got a good, long run (and can still go Easy/Casual), while new 100 sloters get quite some time to try out the game and see if they like it not. Just don't think this is sufficient reason to limit K2. So many ships to K2 and they are not even keeping up with number of new ships annually.

    So it's hard to understand why devs feel the need to ration K2 unless it's that they just want some ships to be extra special which doesn't work so well in this type of game. To use an analogy, kanmusu here are kind of like NPCs used to form a party in a single player fantasy RPG. A good game of that type will have at least a couple of each character class and all will generally be about as good in terms of effectiveness in the party within each specific class. So if say you don't like Mage A, hopefully Mage B or even Mage C will work for you. What sucks is when devs have a favorite that's just hax/op compared to the other NPC and you find that character grating. Don't add to party at your own peril. Not fun. Same if one NPC is required in party for most of the game. Been there. and it gets really annoying.

    Obviously not all within a ship class (e.g. Gangut's not Yamato) or even the RL specific ship class (e.g Poi/Ayanami due to historic performance boost) will have same stats. Just depends on above two factors (and perhaps game play balance moderation as needed). Still, more "bunching" IMO wouldn't hurt here and there (there's also gimmicks and such to possibly consider). Ex. Give Takao & Atago a K2 so around Myoukou class K2. If not higher firepower (incl. torps) than say Choukai K2, then not much power creep, but nice for fans of those ships. Choukai fans still have Choukai K2. Not a top priority as she can be useful, but no reason not to give Prinz Eugen a K2 and a bit of a stat boost. Even if she ended up with near/same NB power as Myoukou, is that so bad? Not really power-creep as much as another option.

    As for stock equipment, meh. Akagi K2 doesn't come with equipment, neither does Suzuyu/Kumano K2, Zuihou K2, etc. Do get what you mean, but already have ships that don't give any equipment for K2 or what they do give isn't all that impressive or game breaking (e.g. Kagerou - 12.7cm Mod C, and 2x Quad Oxy). Something to consider for sure, but nothing that can't be worked out IMO.

    Lastly, regarding Shimakaze - agree with you per above. End of DD NB DA being important along with multiple other options now at 158 NB power hit Shimakaze hard. Anime bungling didn't help her character popularity either. As for K2, yeah, I do think it got delayed. Also not sure if it will be good or not. Given RL retrofit, might end up with shit personal AACI and reduction in offensive power = potentially even less useful.


    Last edited by goesto11; 07-02-2019 at 07:52 AM.
    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  3. #23
    Vice-Admiral DLRevan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    IGN
    DLRevan
    Server
    Kanoya Airfield
    Posts
    3,101
    Rep
    85
    Mentioned
    1026 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by goesto11 View Post
    TL:DR version of all this for me is that while I agree that Kongou-Class/Shigure K2(letter) isn't the biggest issue facing the game specifically, it's part of a bigger issue (K2/future remodels), and I do not like the hyper-focus on favored ships "because popular" marketing driven game development.
    Something that applies to pretty much every other point is that you're probably reading far too much into stuff and over-complicating everything here. There likely isn't a giant spreadsheet noting how many times a particular ship-girl has been promoted that is cross-checked against another spreadsheet containing all the stats in the game. This doesn't even happen for gigantic games like most AAA games, and when it does, it's still a lot more organic than you think. A lot of these decisions are made around the couch. Now you might scoff at that, but if you think about it that works well because you can make qualitative decisions. I also think you're not very cognizant of how the fan community responds to new content, characters need to be changed up, that's a reality. Whether its Western or Eastern fandoms, characters are very often re-designed and re-imagined to increase their appeal anew. Even if you don't think it's necessary, it's a fact that it does have an impact.

    And by the way, it's funny you mention game remasters being examples of "focusing on making the best games they can make" because nobody in the games industry, including those doing the remasters, believes that. Most remasters and remakes are motivated by sheer marketing spin to capitalize on nostalgia. Most devs don't even want to go back to working on those games, no matter how good they were, which is why you generally see subsidiaries and junior teams take those on. As for sequels, it's a mix. As for those sequels and the other big successful titles, I think you are unclear about why and how they're made. As I said, I think you're seeing things far too much in black and white. Either developers "focus on making the best game possible" or they cave to marketing demands......no, it really doesn't happen like this. The're aren't guys in suits versus guys in T-shirts, there aren't big board room meetings in the big evil corps trying to make endless marketing spam versus guys just hunkering down and focusing on making a great game. Real life isn't so simple. And there's the irony that you mention good first games that do well...then years later their sequels sell like hotcakes...did you mean to say their brand name didn't factor into it? Thats an easy marketing win already, built-in. A third of the budget for big title video games, millions of dollars, is used purely on marketing for a reason. And I don't want to go too much into it frankly, because I've had this conversation many times with many a gamer who think they know better...and somehow I don't think I will have much better luck now. Everyone thinks games just have to be good, the developers genuine and forthcoming, player feedback is considered some kind of holy grail, and somehow it will all work out. I do work in the industry by the way, and I sure wish your vision of how it all works was the truth.

    Does it all apply to the KC team? I don't know, especially since Japanese developers really do work differently from all other regions. But for sure it doesn't work like how you seem to think it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by goesto11 View Post
    Really? The FBI is worried about KanColle? Is there any verified FBI investigation for this game? Let me be clear, I definitely would prefer less Maestrale looking DD let alone what we get with DE/CDS. I certainly prefer the older-looking DD designs. However, (A) again KC not some hentai game, and (B) any issue would be due to how young they look. FBI doesn't care about Musashi/Musashi Kai or Kongou Kai, Hamakaze, etc. Shimakze isn't that big of a deal either. KC's toned things down somewhat, but have to wonder how much of that was due to player feedback (again, wasn't a problem when the game rocketed in popularity), or just part of the ongoing current PC culture war in gaming (plenty of examples with that, including Sony, but let's not bring politics here).
    ...and you're also taking everything too literally. My joke which went totally flying over your head just refers to a type of fanservice KC seems to not want to rely predominantly on anymore. It's not politically/socially motivated, its thematically motivated. It could also be motivated by what they see as the broad tastes of the existing remaining player population. Regardless, how they promote characters can be motivated by what they see as each character's selling point. I don't think it's an accident that lately characters that have been seen as cool, reliable, subtly fashionable, and such, have been heavily promoted and given K2s. It fits well with the pseudo/para-military setting. Anyone can say they'd like to have old mainstay "X" given the same treatment, but it doesn't make sense when there exists characters who already own those traits and don't need to be bent into something they originally were not.

    You can also have your own opinion about how characters such as Shimakaze were treated, but as far as I'm concerned she was always that type of character, and she did her job well as that, for a time when it mattered more. That is no longer the case, and I think that's also a good example of how you and others may feel something should be relevant and important today, but actually isn't. There are hundreds of characters in this game, each has a role, each an asset for different things. Its variety is also an asset in itself. Sometimes that means an asset is placed on standby, because it currently isn't needed.





    Can I take issue with something related but a little off the topic? Here's a bit of irony, you say I treat this issue like only certain things are important, like certain existing ships, or certain aspects of the business, or choice of source material, and I ignore the rest. Yet the approach you suggest is not sustainable, because you disregard the business realities surrounding the game development. You disregard the difference in business model between this game and other games. You disregard the difference in the particulars of the majority players of this game versus other games, from their age to their likes, even where they live. You disregard the effect thematic consistency has on the image of the game. You disregard the dangers of feature stacking and content overload. You disregard the needs of the franchise that feeds off this game, and actually is the real reason this game exists at all for KDKW's point of view. You disregard how all of this can and has changed over the 6 years of this game's lifespan. You disregard sometimes the simple reality that there's more than one 'right' way to do things. You disregard a lot of things to be honest.

    And you read too much into what's left and make it black and white. Like here:
    Quote Originally Posted by goesto11 View Post
    No more foreign ships in the game WILL kill it because otherwise your event reward ships are going to be what, DD, DE/CDS, auxiliary, etc. OK, Shinano, then what? Bunch of what-ifs? How long is that going to last?
    I never said we shouldn't have foreign ships? Do you see them stopping on that front? Fewer K2 for niche characters doesn't mean none at all either. At the same time it highlights that you missed this is about the other needs of the game. Why don't you read my original quote again? I'm not going to explain every issue you find with my comments, because a lot of it like this or the Shimakaze thing is driven to the extreme by you, and that's where the problem lies. So really, don't be surprised that we won't ever agree on anything, I think. I think I will also leave it at that, I think I've exhausted the main topic.


    1 out of 0 members found this post helpful.
    Last edited by DLRevan; 07-03-2019 at 08:38 PM.
    Murakumo 17th June 2015
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Touch Fluffy Kumo


 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT. The time now is 01:31 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2
Copyright © 2019 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 7.41%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.3 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Thread / Post Bookmarks provided by Thread / Post Bookmarking v1.1.1pl1 (Free) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Live Threads provided by AJAX Threads (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Skin By: PurevB.com