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  1. #51
    Marshal Admiral KotoNano's Avatar
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    @Trubo Oh I just read your comment about Kinugasa/Mikuma being sources of 20.3(3) but @EchIII's point in a leveling a myoukou class first is right, because instead of levelling Kinugasa to 55 or mikuma to 30 for a single 20.3(3) you could instead level Ashigara, and get three 20.3(2) when she hits K2 at 65.
    Which I would say for a new player leveling Ashigara is probably one of the best CA choices you can make, she gives you three copies of a very good performing main gun and has good stats. Haguro is a good alternative, same remodel level but instead of a third 20.3 you get a type 22 radar (which isn't bad for new players) Myouko herself has the same equipment as Haguro but 5 levels later and has much higher luck to compensate. Nachi being the worst *equipment wise* seeing as she gives 2 mains and another torpedo that all Myouko-class give at kai anyway.

    The (2) tends to be more useful over the (3) the FP dip isn't really a bother. In my opinion anyway

    CA priority should be Myouko-class + Maya > Tone-class > Choukai + Mogami-class > other CA if we consider it for the optimal ships. Prinz is excluded because worst CA she's event only.
    ... which is why I levelled Choukai to 99 a year before her K2, why Maya is level 30, Ashigara is my only Myouko-class over 30 and why both my Furutaka-class ships are over 90.

    ---

    On the CL Discussion..
    Other than Sendai (for equipment) Jintsuu (for stats) Abukuma (for being a mini CLT) and Ooyodo, you can pretty much just pick any CL you like that's not a 59/79 and she'll do well.
    Isuzu is worth getting to 12 for the air radar then using as modernization fodder. Her K2 is just insulting. Yuubari is a good girl but basically a glorified DD.

    In all honestly CL's are very RARELY used in the game for anything other than expeditions and filling combined fleet rules, Sendais equipment is amazing so that's one, Abukuma cheats the system being a pesudo-CLT so that's two, Jintsuu has really good stats and can hit almost as hard as a high-tier CA at night (70/98 to Myouko's 80/88 to give an example) makes three and you RARELY need more than three. Especially if you're doing an event on easy with no fleet locking.


    Last edited by KotoNano; 04-04-2016 at 08:54 AM.

  2. #52
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    @EchIII Actually, no.

    You're way too emotionally involved with this and you are just acting dumb now. Not calling you dumb, because smart people can act dumb when they get emotionally involved in a debate/argument.

    It's not my opinion, it's basically fact, by your logic, I could even say that Mutsuki is better than Kongou since Mutuski has 45 firepower for 15 ammo, and Kongou has 98 FP for 125 ammo, and since 45/15 is bigger than 98/125, Mutuski is far more efficient and better.

    I would be right by that system, the problem is that such a system is boneheaded.
    This right here... is just you being a very sore loser.
    Neither Resource Cost nor Efficiency was ever brought up in his system.
    Otherwise, the Yamato-class and Nagato-class would be worth less than Kirishima. In fact, Kirishima would be the last BB you need.

    His entire article is built on a completely flawed foundation, failing to take into and properly account for those advantages renders the whole article moot.
    I am not arguing for the sensibility of the system he used, I'm arguing that he did know what he was doing. His formula is correct, even if it may be misleading.

    All it'd take it make a proper article would be to lay out total damage output is simpl

    See this below? This took me precisely three minutes to do, and it's a LOT more accurate than anything he has written, a lot easier to understand, and far closer to their actual damage output
    Nice cherry picked results.
    Yuubari does a whopping 2 points less overall damage than Ooyodo, and she is only given 2 equips vs Ooyodo's 3.
    [sarcasm]Very fair and balanced of you.[/sarcasm].
    Let me translate this into layman's terms : Yuubari entered a staged competition stacked against her and lost by only 2 points. Out of 650. Wow, so inferior.
    If you had given Yuubari 1 Main Gun and 2 Secondaries, she would have dealt more damage than Ooyodo and still had a spare slot for Star Shells.

    Now, here's my cherry picked results.

    Assuming both ships are Maxed out (Lv99, Kai'd, full modernization), all equipment is not improved, and they're shooting at a target hulk with an armor rating of 0.
    That way we have a verifiable base to work with.

    Ooyodo w/ 2x 20.3cm (No.3) Twin Gun Mount; 1 x Type 98 Reconnaissance Seaplane (Night Recon); 1 x Type 0 Reconnaissance Seaplane
    Her relevant stats are:
    63 FP (base) + 10 + 10 = 83 FP
    49 Torp (base)
    56% chance of Artillery Spotting Double Attack
    99% chance of Double Attack during Night Battle
    +5 Pre-Cap damage in Night Battle

    Therefore, her damage is as follows:
    Opening: 0
    Shelling (1st Phase) : 88 (FP + 5)
    2nd Attack Damage : 68 (FP + 5 + 20% x 2 - Base Shelling Damage x chance of occurring, rounded down)
    Shelling (2nd Phase) : 88 (FP + 5)
    2nd Attack Damage : 68 (FP + 5 + 20% x 2 - Base Shelling Damage x chance of occurring, rounded down)
    Closing : 54 (Torp + 5)
    Night Battle : 137 (FP + Torp + 5 from Night Recon)
    2nd Night Battle Hit : 189 (FP + Torp + 5 from Night Recon + 20% x 2 - Base Night Battle Damage x chance of occurring, rounded down)

    Total Weighted Damage : 692

    Here's Yuubari's results:
    Yuubari w/ 1 x 20.3cm (No.3) Twin Gun Mount; 3 x 15.5cm Triple Secondary Gun Mount
    Her relevant stats are:
    63 FP (base) + 10 + 7 + 7 + 7 = 94
    79 Torp (base)
    0% chance of Artillery Spotting Double Attack
    99% chance of Double Attack during Night Battle

    Therefore, her damage is as follows:
    Opening: 0
    Shelling (1st Phase) : 99 (FP + 5)
    2nd Attack Damage : 0 (FP + 5 + 20% x 2 - Base Shelling Damage x chance of occurring, rounded down)
    Shelling (2nd Phase) : 99 (FP + 5)
    2nd Attack Damage : 0 (FP + 5 + 20% x 2 - Base Shelling Damage x chance of occurring, rounded down)
    Closing : 84 (Torp + 5)
    Night Battle : 173 (FP + Torp)
    2nd Night Battle Hit : 239 (FP + Torp + 20% x 2 - Base Night Battle Damage x chance of occurring, rounded down)

    Total Weighted Damage : 694

    Result, 692 to 694, Yuubari on average deals more damage than Ooyodo by 2 points, and Ooyodo had Artillery Spotting and Night Recon effects. Every advantage she could have.
    But it's only 2 points, you may say. But yours was only 4.
    Welcome to statistics, the world of the anal.

    Now, once again, to be clear : I am not arguing in favor of the system that the man used, I am arguing that he did know what he was doing.
    Personally, I would weigh Ooyodo as more valuable in any given fleet given her defensive stats are just so much better than Yuubari's.
    But that was not the scale the man's formula was weighing with.



  3. #53
    Marshal Admiral KotoNano's Avatar
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    @ColGraceland The lack of daytime double attack puts Yuubari barely over Yuudachi and Ayanami for daytime combat if we include gun FP bonus (70+6, 73+6 and 63+20) except with no AACI if you're not using Maya.
    Yes if you go into night battle Yuubari (if she can survive long enough, with DD armor and HP she most likely won't on high-difficulty maps) can "catch up" in damage to Ooyodo, but you only go into night battle on the boss node.
    Which means 90% of the time Yuubari underperforms against every other notable CL except on the boss node where. Surprise she manages to barely compete with Ooyodo who outperforms her on the other 3~4 nodes.

    I'm the type of person who says objectively day time power is more important in general when comparing two similiar power ships, as players avoid going into night battle as often as possible. Using Yuubari over Ooyodo will give you S on the boss in both cases, both will perform give or take the same as long as both get to attack at night but can be the difference between getting S and A on any of other nodes and avoiding a random Taiha. Of course if Yuubari gets Taiha'd during closing torpedo on boss node (highly possible if she gets hit with that pathetic HP pool) Ooyodo in the same situation would of done a lot more damage and may potentially clinched in with orange HP to attack at night.

    Objectively though, you need to see all the special features of a class, their abilities and gimmicks and rate them on that. Just going with flat FP/TP totals without knowing what equipment they can use gets skewed results.


    Last edited by KotoNano; 04-04-2016 at 09:30 AM.

  4. #54
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    @KotoNano

    Oh, I most certainly agree.
    It wasn't my terms, it was Echlll's and the guy who made that guide.

    Once more, because nobody seems to see this:
    I am not arguing in favor of the system that the man used, I am arguing that he did know what he was doing.
    While misleading, the formula he used to determine placement was correct.
    Personally, I would weigh Ooyodo as more valuable in any given fleet given her defensive stats are just so much better than Yuubari's.
    But that was not the scale the man's formula was weighing with.

    All of this was drawn from my previous post in this thread.



  5. #55
    Marshal Admiral KotoNano's Avatar
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    @ColGraceland That's true my bad.
    Even then, it's been proven time and again being too picky with stats, optimization and such just makes it a little easier but isn't that important. If there was a way to rig RNG based on a timer you could get away with literally anything.



  6. #56
    Captain EchIII's Avatar
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    @ColGraceland

    If the guy knew what he was doing, he would never have used such a system to begin with.


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  7. #57
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    @EchIII

    I will stand by my insistence that the man knew what he was doing.
    It's a very basic formula that he was using, largely for the sake of simplicity and to address the question he/they presented with his/their document.
    The question they posed was an issue of direct damage.
    You claimed it was not the case, I proved it was so. You moved the goalposts.
    Are we having fun yet?



  8. #58
    Admiral Trubo's Avatar
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    @KotoNano

    I am not saying that units like Kinugasa and Mikuma, good mostly for their equipment, should be a first priority to level before units with actual good stats, such as the Myoukou-class and Tone-class.

    I'm saying that that they should be mentioned more than just "this class isn't too great, so don't worry about leveling them". Using OP's color scheme, I would rank them at Moderately Recommended.

    Speaking of which, I know OP has admitted a bias towards Choukai, but I'd swap her K2 listing with 1x Fusou-class. She's not that much better than Myoukou or Haguro, and her BP cost is a turnoff for a newer player. She does give some decent equipment, but most people would be more attracted to things like the 19/20 more FP that a Fusou-class K2 has over an Ise-class or the 12 more night battle power of the Tone-class K2 over the Mogami-class K1. In addition, Fusou-class K2 and Tone-class K2 have better plane slot distributions for surface combat than Ise-class K1 and Mogami-class K1, respectively.

    Sure, Choukai K2 has some nice equipment (Skilled Lookouts and Type 22 Surface Radar Kai 4), but so do the Fusou-class (proto 41cm and Zuiun 12) and the Tone-class (20.3cm(3) and Zuiun 634)


    Last edited by Trubo; 04-04-2016 at 02:46 PM.

  9. #59
    Captain EchIII's Avatar
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    @ColGraceland

    Yes, got you, 83 FP is more direct damage than 2X105. kk, Yuubari beats Ooyodo.


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  10. #60
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    @EchIII

    Complete failure of reading comprehension.
    Ooyodo has 83FP, Yuubari ends up with 94 FP.
    And, a 50 (your scheme)-56 (my scheme)% chance of activating is actually not reliable enough to count on; basically, there is a 44-50% chance of Ooyodo doing much less damage than Yuubari and a 50-56% chance of her doing much more.
    This means that weighted results based on averages must be considered, unless you are doing a raw FP+Torp comparison (or something similar); otherwise, the entire thing is worthless.
    It's like claiming that Yukikaze is worthless in night battle compared to Shimakaze, because Shimakaze can theoretically do more damage with a cut in.
    Which is actually true, but only works by not paying any attention to Yukikaze's 64%+ chance of triggering the Cut-In compared to Shimakaze's ~28% chance - which makes a lot of difference on a weighted result (which is basically an average)!

    The statistics that you gave included Night Battle stats.
    I gave similar stats.
    Now you're suddenly claiming that it's all about Day Battle, despite having previously given the stats for night battle, just because you've realized that you've lost the technical argument.

    Wow, just look at those goalposts dance.
    I have nothing to lose and you're destroying your credibility.
    Want to keep going?



 

 

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