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  1. #131
    Vice-Admiral Kuropo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betel View Post
    Can the jet bombing phase trigger abyssal AACI? If not, the difference is unlikely to be significant.

    Let's be realistic here: the jet fighters are really overpowered compared to the other planes. The best non-jet fighter bomber is +4/+7; the Kikka Kai is +12/+11. That is more than double the stats, with the same AA as the best realistically available fighter and 2 points short of the best dive bomber. Plus this thing bombs twice! Sure, dive bombers are worse than torpedo and you get less air power than dedicated fighters due to plane loss + reduced proficiency bonus, but come on, this is still worth like two normal planes rolled in one.
    Abyssal AACI is not needed to have many of your planes being shot down. Just a couple of Flagship Wo Kais and/or a few air strike nodes are sufficient, which are quite common in events (on Hard). In E-4 and E-5 of last event, my fleets lost at least 50 air power before reaching the boss node.
    Now keep in mind that these jets are fighter-bombers, which can be shot down by enemy fleet AA (unlike fighters). Though these jets may have high AA, they are much less effective in fulfilling the role of actual fighters (gaining air power. They get shot down much easier and therefore lose their air power much easier as well. This is why reppuu/fighter mules are sometimes recommended instead of having a setup with fighter-bombers (they sometimes just don't cut it).
    More (fighter-)bombers lost results in weaker air strikes in the further nodes too.
    Having to participate in more phases means losing even more planes, thus also air power. I am not arguing that these jet aircrafts are necessarily bad, I am just pointing out the downsides of using these. In fact, these jets are actually very good if air power is a non-issue, and definitely on par with or better than regular dive/torpedo bombers.

    Also, I am not a fan of (regular) fighter-bombers in general for the reason above. I have always been avoiding use of fighter-bombers as much as possible and luckily never found the need to use these either. Though, I am quite "fortunate" (actually have ground for) to have really good fighters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Furthermore, here is a quote from wikia: "There is no known instance of Abyssal AACI."
    I cannot verify the correctness of that statement, but I thought I would just leave that here. As far as I can tell (purely my own conjecture), abyssals are indeed not able to perform AACI to this date. I have never seen my plane loss fluctuate too widely in the same map to assume it does exist.


    Last edited by Kuropo; 12-15-2016 at 02:22 AM.
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  2. #132
    Admiral illyrin's Avatar
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    @Betel iirc, Abyssals don't need AACI to clear out your bombers they're Americans you just need high AA scores (hopefully reinforced by good Fleet-Wide AA Bonuses) and to hit both 50% rolls.*

    I recall someone on Himeuta running the numbers on a Tsu Elite and concluding they could get shoot-down rates near AACI levels simply by having a high AA score - I've never seen the full stats of a lot of Abyssal equipment published so I don't know the fleet-wide AA score (艦隊防空) of a lot of Abyssal weapons but I'd imagine the guns on the Tsu are pretty high.\

    It's been a concern that if the jets are exposed to two rounds of AA fire, especially against some fleet with good AA scores over all of the ships, jets may be more of liability than an asset on EO maps - not because of the resupply costs but because you won't have them by the boss node.


    * It's been my speculation for a while the Abyssals don't get AACI. Instead they get something more reliable - a lot more of their equipment contributes to fleet-wide air defense (艦隊防空). Some player equipment like the 10cmHAFDs and the Italian 90mm guns contribute significantly to this total, for the most part player fleets lack good ways of boosting that score so we need AACI. Equipment like the 深海FCS+CIC on their DDs and so on I suspect have a high fleet air defense bonus (though the wikia doesn't show stats like that so this is just speculation).



  3. #133
    Newly Registered Betel's Avatar
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    @Kuropo

    To clarify, I also don't like normal fighter-bombers (I didn't even convert the iwai to fighter-bomber), since they are just too weak. I am also very well aware of the loss of fighter power due to AA, as I wrote (less effective than dedicated fighters due to plane loss. You also have a much reduced proficiency bonus to fighter power, which is very significant when half your planes are shot down before the boss).

    I have never seen any conclusive test on abyssal anti-air, and give the randomicity intrinsic in the system, I don't think any conclusion could be taken without massive data gathering (perhaps if something like K3C had the ability to update anonymized battle traces to a central database...). I have certainly seen huge variability in bomber losses between sorties, but nothing that cannot be explained with random 50% rolls and various bonus to fleet-wide AA. I don't understand the comment about the Wo-Kais/air strike nodes, as to my understanding plane losses during fighter combat affect all plane types equally.

    I guess we shall see on harder maps. If on average you end up at the boss with half your regular bombers and no jets, I certainly agree that jets are not usable.





  4. #134
    Marshal Admiral Emerald Acid's Avatar
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    @Betel The regular ones are pointless, sure. But the Iwai F/B is far from weak. Max stars gives it 9 FP, and max proficiency gives it the full post-cap crit bonus that bombers enjoy. Give it to someone who has their first slot as their biggest for the other damage bonus and this thing will pay dividends easily.


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  5. #135
    Vice-Admiral Kuropo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betel View Post
    @Kuropo
    I don't understand the comment about the Wo-Kais/air strike nodes, as to my understanding plane losses during fighter combat affect all plane types equally.
    I meant to say that event maps are often very AA heavy. Even with just regular fighters, quite a significant amount of air power was lost. The (jet) fighter-bombers are susceptible to enemy fleet AA, wheres regular fighters are not. Thus, you'll be quickly losing air power even more easily.


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  6. #136
    Community Staff Jifaru's Avatar
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    @illyrin I thought it was long established that abyssals don't get AACI since that would affect all bomber slots uniformly and make it impossible to field any significant number of bombers. Also, T13 kai and the standard Maya/Akizuki AACI equipment provides a massive amount of fleetwide AA when fully upgraded (and very little when not upgraded). I'm assuming that fleetwide AA just increases the base value used in AA calculation for each ship.

    I'm sure that there will be a little more clarity on how bonuses AA works when jets start taking out Tsus before the main bombing phase begins.


    @Kuropo

    I feel like that's a moot point though. At least currently, the first large slot for Zuikaku/Shoukaku k2A is pretty much a non-negotiable bomber slot unless you're using the Iwai FB for whatever reason, meaning that the slot wouldn't contribute to fighter power to any significant degree anyway beyond what you get from the Tomonaga/Murata.


    I've done about 40~50 runs with the Keiun kai in 5-4, which obviously doesn't mean much due to the sparse surface-air and piss poor sample size, but my first instinct is that the jets aren't double tapped by surface-air. I think I'd have to go to 4-5 to get more robust data since there are actually things there that threaten your bomber slots, but it just doesn't make any sense to make the jets doubly vulnerable to surface-air when elite Tsus have been rampant in just about every event.


    Last edited by Jifaru; 12-15-2016 at 11:00 AM.

  7. #137
    Kantai Analyst 211303's Avatar
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    Just found this video. As the title says, the damage on that CV hime is unusually high. This is the setup he used. There is a miss on that CA as well, and all Keiun got shot down, so the 229 damage must be done by the Kikka kai in the 34 slot alone. I tried to do some calculation myself:

    Assuming the damage formula is the same as normal bomber, damage of Kikka kai in 34 slot in opening airstrike would be:
    11*sqrt(34)+25= 89 (133 when critical) (I forgot the *1.3 veteran bonus. It should be 173 when critical, but still it's not possible to do such high damage.)

    CV hime has 150 armor, so her lowest possible armor would be 105.

    Hence, 229 damage should not be possible at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    A few possible explanation:

    1. That particular CV hime in 6-4 get bonus damage from bombers, like those in events. People rarely take North route in that map, so it's not discovered

    2. Jet bomber uses a different damage formula (unlikely, as people would have already noticed it if this is the case)

    3. Jet bomber/Jet assault has special damage bonus on CV hime


    Last edited by 211303; 12-15-2016 at 07:22 PM.
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  8. #138
    Rear-Admiral persocom01's Avatar
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    @Jifaru afaik according to tests done by people on discord, jets do get double tapped by surface air. Basically, to test this, you need to run as+ and have a slot of jets too small to be downed by enemy fighters, then observe the loss of jets at the beginning and end of the battle.

    for a slot of 12 for example, if you see kc3 kai with 10 bombers in the air phase, it means 2 were shot down in the jet phase. If you see 10 - 2, it basically confirms that jets do get double tapped by surface air.


    Last edited by persocom01; 12-15-2016 at 07:49 PM.

  9. #139
    Community Staff Jifaru's Avatar
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    @211303 Might be a CVHime thing. This is 6-5 with LBAS but...


    @persocom01: Yeah that seems like a better way to do it than looking at net loss after each node.


    Last edited by Jifaru; 12-15-2016 at 08:40 PM.

  10. #140
    Marshal Admiral Nerfx's Avatar
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    @Jifaru that's normal for CV Hime, LBAS can rek her hard if they snipe



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