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  1. #181
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goesto11 View Post
    @firemagnet:
    --snip--



    Understand the analogy with Trilliam of Adlnoah Zero (which IMO had significant issues including ML and "Oh, she's totally dead" "No, wait she's fine after all"), but he & Magane are materially different IMO. That guy is cliché one-dimensional and at ?€œBond villain?€? levels stupid. He?€™s a disposable enemy (as were a few of them). Magane IMO is better than that. Sorry, but she does give off an intelligent vibe unlike that guy. Yes, the plot gives her opportunity, but she takes advantage of that beyond "Hulk Magane smash!" Mind games (incl. her nebulous "lies turned inside out" powers) are her thing. That does take some level of intelligence. I suspect you disagree and that?€™s a significant, material difference. Two, this guy just blathers on with stupid trash talk. Thing about trash talk is that whether you back it up or not makes ALL the difference. Trash-talk and pull it off? Well, I'm not a fan of trash talking, but you did back up your words so have to give some credit. Fail and it's "LMAO! What a fool." That guy spectacularly fails (in cliche' stupid comic book evil style). He's essentially defeated by... water (same weakness as the aliens in Signs >_>. "Allergic to Earth" is a bad trope for alien movies/shows).
    You'll have to excuse me for moving goalposts a little, since this discussion is helping sort out what Magane is (other than the fact that I just don't find her all that great as a villain).

    Re: Magane's powers, Hiroe Rei implied (jokingly) in an interview after episode 9 that even he doesn't know why Magane shows up when it's only convenient for her. The full interview is here (https://www.sunday-webry.com/events/...d/interview09/). Among its salient points (copied from reddit):


    • It's reiterated that Magane likes to twist what people say in order to maximize "fun";
    • Souta's arc was done this way on purpose, as it serves the theme of the story;
    • Regarding Magane's excellent timing for appearing out of nowhere, Hiroe jokingly said that even he doesn't understand how she does it.




    So we basically have Rei Hiroe implying that Magane (and her powers) are a convenient plot device.


    Well execution affects just about everything with a show, and good execution can make up for a significant number of shortcomings. As for "relatable", personally I wouldn't say "relatable" is a criteria when it comes to villains, but rather "credible". Of course "credible", just like "relatable", is subjective. Perhaps I'm more amenable to "let the world burn" villains than you. Have to do it right of course, but one of my favorite all time anime villains (maybe just villains period) is the Major from Hellsing Ultimate/OVA. I'm not always a big fan of such over-the-top, bombastic stuff, but Hellsing Ultimate/OVA just works for me (other than the very YMMV comedy). NOTE: There ARE significant difference between the Major and Magane, and the Major is IMO a MUCH better villain, but he does have a smarmy attitude, taunts at times, and definitely a "let the world burn" attitude (Major's Speech).

    I agree that the dearth of information on Megane isn't helping matters, but I still contend that we know as much, if not more, about her than Blitz. Maybe I missed something in the rush to catch up, but that dude just shows up, "Yo~ I'm on Altair's side" and that's about it. I'll be honest, to me right now Magane's at least as good as that guy is.

    Though I don't think Blitz has been truly defeated(?), he does struggle more than Magane so far. Still, I think another difference in viewpoint is that I just don?€™t see Magane as all that omnipotent, unbeatable. Might be proven wrong on that, but TBH, I?€™m not sure if she makes it to the end of the show. So as for the fight, while I'm still not very clear on what Altair can do, given your description of Altair's powers ("creation and deconstruction, in all their applications", the hard drive analogy of wiping out worlds) plus you know that she's got more abilities/skills than shown so far, seems to me Altair would win fairly easily. Maybe mess up Magane's powers? Either that or simply what happened with Mamika. *Magane starts monologue -> gets skewered with a bunch of swords mid-sentence*. Not denying the possibility and it would be one hell of a twist if Magane did defeat Altair and become the main villain, but hard to see that happening at this juncture. At any rate, I think Meteora will figure out a way to defeat Magane.
    Yeah, the Major is better than Magane in many ways. They're different. The Major, at least, takes himself seriously. He doesn't make an effort to hide what he is, and he's great in that corny-cheesy cartoon-nazi way. He just is. FWIW, I usually find villains like Magane tolerable, but something visceral about her (as well as the way people seem to like to deify her (usually while bashing Altair)) pisses me off to no end.

    Specifically, Magane isn't necessarily an awful villain, as I said. Rather, my reaction to her is primarily because of all the people who think that she's a "good" or "the best" villain. I can't agree with that. She's not executed well enough for it. As someone pointed out, she basically gets to be the ultimate internet troll in real life. Because she's never serious and we never actually get to see her when she's not trolling for the sake of the plot, she feels hollow and contrived, even if she is actually intelligent. The worst part about her for me is all the faux-pas she does with the philosophy; it's just too obvious, and it plays up her cunning while playing down any depth and intelligence that she has. All of it detracts from her credibility as a villain IMHO.

    As for Blitz, we know exactly what he is; the clean up guy. We don't know more about him, but then he doesn't feel as "contrived" as Magane does to me, and we can figure out a lot about him just from his few appearances; he's allied with Altair out of convenience to himself and he takes the attitude that he might as well enjoy the ride.



  2. #182
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Update for this week's episodes:


    I've dropped Sekaisuru Kado. It fell flat on its face with the last two episodes



    Re:Creators episode 11:

    A nice break from the action that adds crucial backstory
    [+] Spoiler
    concerning Shimazaki Setsuna (real name: Yuna)


    Yet the reasons for
    [+] Spoiler
    Shimazaki's suicide
    seem a bit contrived, with Souta appearing to blame himself far too much for something he seems to have little to no hand in as of this episode (more explanation seems to be on the way). Either way, this fleshing out of the backstory to the entire series was badly needed, and hints at the true purpose of
    [+] Spoiler
    Altair.




    update: someone leaked the plot details for episode 12. Read and discuss if you dare:

    [+] Spoiler


    Altair is revealed by Meteora to be a living god, one whose summoning was directly facilitated by Setsuna's death. Setsuna explicitly wrote Altair to be the avatar of her revenge against her haters. She just didn't expect that her death would realize her in the real world. Meteora makes it clear that Altair cannot be defeated by conventional means, even by the created; with Setsuna's death, Altair has become a public domain character; there was never any copyright on her, so her fans own her now. What this means is that Altair has theoretically infinite power thanks to a positive feedback loop; she is constantly being re-created by her fans in subsequent works, and she was never given a power ceiling to begin with. Faced with the prospect of fighting a character who has literally become god, the creators and created elect to pool all their works into one single narrative with Altair as its main villain (essentially writing their experience as a novel). In doing so, they will be able to bring Altair under control, assign a cap to her powers and thereby be able to defeat her by convincing her fans of that capability. Meteora guesses that this will take a minimum of three-to-six months due to the need to acquire all of the copyrights. The Japanese government elects to foot the bill, given that the survival of all worlds is at stake." Meanwhile, two crucial events happen. First, Aliceteria, having overcome her plot-induced stupidity, begins reading up. Curious, she elects to meet with Blitz to see what's going on where she finds out he's been lying to her (she tells him that "He needs to be better at lying, since Magane is so much better at it"). In doing so, Aliceteria figures out that Altair is responsible for Mamika's death. She fights Blitz, and in the process of doing so manages to free her own Creator, Takarada Gai. She has a long discussion with him about the purpose of her world, asking him if her world is "worth dying for." Although Takarada Gai states that he's ashamed of creating such a bleak world, he ultimately gives in and states that he believes so--more to save his own hide than anything else. Aliceteria ultimately tells him that he's free to do as he wishes, but notes that he "should thank the boy who loved your world so much, and spoke of its justice and courage (Souta)." Second is that Altair begins to summon more of the created.



    Last edited by firemagnet; 06-18-2017 at 09:24 AM.

  3. #183
    Marshal Admiral KotoNano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goesto11 View Post
    @KotoNano: I wonder it might have been better if the allocation between world-building/background context and battles had been more evenly allocated in the story. You wouldn’t get quite as exciting, action-packed S1, but then the differences with S2 wouldn’t be as stark and S2 picks up a bit in general.

    As for the manga, personally the shift doesn't seem as great due to the different mediums. Battles are much more dynamic with the anime than in the manga (as it should & points to anime for that), so I think there’s more contrast when it shifts from battle to info/backstory with the anime. For the manga, I just marathoned it when S2 started (forgot a lot) so it all went by pretty fast. Regarding the spoiler stuff, yeah, I can see your point. Maybe things get a bit more convoluted than they should. IDK. Honestly, I’m not recalling a ton of detail either on that stuff.

    I know that Snk (or AoT) was a big hit with western audiences, but I thought it did well in Japan. Were BD/DVD sales not quite high for S1? At any rate, yes, if Snk wasn’t all that popular in the home market, then not going to get a huge, 2-cour budget. That being said, I’d be quite surprised if S2 was the last SnK season. I think there will be an S3 if not more beyond that.
    Oh it is popular in japan otherwise it wouldn't of even got a season 2 even with the western push for one. I do think it's popularity and reception must not have been great if they waited so long for a season 2 then it was only a single cour. If the first season made a lot of money they'd of pushed for a 2-cour second season with a similiar budget to get the extra BD sales.

    The series in general definitely could do with better pacing, doing a marathon the manga might of made it not feel as bad but you have to remember it's a monthly publication. When you get two or thee chapters where not much happens to advance the plot it's more like 3~ months or something where the story doesn't progress or have action going on and that really feels kinda sad.

    I mean it's completely gone on with a new cast of characters in a completely different location right now and It's like a soft reset on the story as it goes back to introducing characters and world building which while slowing the story down at least means it's going.. somewhere.



    Wake me up if Yuzuki or Fiume get added

  4. #184
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KotoNano View Post
    Oh it is popular in japan otherwise it wouldn't of even got a season 2 even with the western push for one. I do think it's popularity and reception must not have been great if they waited so long for a season 2 then it was only a single cour. If the first season made a lot of money they'd of pushed for a 2-cour second season with a similiar budget to get the extra BD sales.

    The series in general definitely could do with better pacing, doing a marathon the manga might of made it not feel as bad but you have to remember it's a monthly publication. When you get two or thee chapters where not much happens to advance the plot it's more like 3~ months or something where the story doesn't progress or have action going on and that really feels kinda sad.

    I mean it's completely gone on with a new cast of characters in a completely different location right now and It's like a soft reset on the story as it goes back to introducing characters and world building which while slowing the story down at least means it's going.. somewhere.
    The pacing of the anime is a bit too slow at this point, though. There's also no real point watching the anime if you've read the manga through chapter 90 or so, since you know exactly what's going to happen. Overall, I'd say that SnK S2 has been probably the biggest disappointment for me this season, along with Sekaisuru Kado. Meanwhile, BnHA is still going strong; the anime is worth watching even though I've read the manga through chapter 106, since they've done the transition so well.

    Right now my seasonal ranking is:

    1.Re:Creators
    2.BnHA
    3.Alice to Zokurou
    4.Saekano Flat
    5.Eromanga Sensei
    6.Tsugumomo
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    #whateveridon'tcareanymore: Berserk, Sekaisuru Kado, ID-0, SnK2, etc.



  5. #185
    Captain Kranesh's Avatar
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    @firemagnet Well then... some heavy stuff is about to happen next episode, I had an idea of what Altair was in reality considering the death of her ceator and her work never published/finished but to become something so powerful just by being in an open domain and being affected by so many people is... genious! This totally explains why she is overpowered and Meteora's idea to bring her under control is totally clever, so they're literally going to make a Super Smash Brothers with Altair as the Master Hand... that's gonna be extremely epic, seriously Re:Cretors is living up to the hype and it's becoming probably one of the best animes of this year thanks to development like this... sure it has it's flaws but overall the experience has been pretty solid and it can only become better from now on.

    I'm also happy to see that Alice will finally stop being stupid and more Created will come to the real world, I feel sorry for Alice to have a coward as his Creator... but it's an understandable reaction considering what happened to him and probably many of us would react that way, to be honest I like to write stories and such so I feel extremely happy witht this show. If one day my Created decide to pay me a visit, I'll be sure to have lots of snacks because it's gonna be a long day XD

    Also your ranking is pretty good, considering many shows will be ending this week I'll be sure to post my overall thoughts of the season and proper ranking soon.


    Last edited by Kranesh; 06-18-2017 at 08:07 PM.


  6. #186
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kranesh View Post
    @firemagnet Well then... some heavy stuff is about to happen next episode, I had an idea of what Altair was in reality considering the death of her ceator and her work never published/finished but to become something so powerful just by being in an open domain and being affected by so many people is... genious! This totally explains why she is overpowered and Meteora's idea to bring her under control is totally clever, so they're literally going to make a Super Smash Brothers with Altair as the Master Hand... that's gonna be extremely epic, seriously Re:Cretors is living up to the hype and it's becoming probably one of the best animes of this year thanks to development like this... sure it has it's flaws but overall the experience has been pretty solid and it can only become better from now on.

    I'm also happy to see that Alice will finally stop being stupid and more Created will come to the real world, I feel sorry for Alice to have a coward as his Creator... but it's an understandable reaction considering what happened to him and probably many of us would react that way, to be honest I like to write stories and such so I feel extremely happy witht this show. If one day my Created decide to pay me a visit, I'll be sure to have lots of snacks because it's gonna be a long day XD

    Also your ranking is pretty good, considering many shows will be ending this week I'll be sure to post my overall thoughts of the season and proper ranking soon.
    @Kranesh
    The spoilers came from a series of posts made on Baidu by someone who had attended a special airing of episodes 11 and 12. They made their post on June 13, and their spoilers for episode 11 checked out perfectly, so there's no reason to believe that they're not right in the broad strokes. I used bing and google to dual-translate the posts and try to make heads or tails of them. The following is my full writeup, based off of the posts made here:
    https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5156910153?see_lz=1

    If you're fluent or have some command of simplified Chinese, I'd be very interested to see what you make of it. Start on page 2 of three, since that's where the actual reporting on episode 12 begins.
    [+] Spoiler


    "It appears that accusations of plagiarism were enough to make Setsuna/Yuuna commit suicide.

    Matsubara becomes furious with Souta, telling him that if he cannot recognize what's wrong here--recognize the truth--then he shouldn't be here(? The literal translation was "show his face").


    Meteora then turns and asks Souta whether or not he is willing to bear responsibility for Altair, and he answers in the affirmative. He agrees with the other creators that their top priority must be to stop Altair.

    Meteora then concludes that Altair's power comes from the fact that she is a re-created character; that she has been "created twice" as a derivative of an original character. Meteora then adds that Altair is getting her power from two sources. First, from the fact that she was never given a power ceiling in the first place and second, because she's a public domain character she's constantly being revised by Setsuna's fans (who technically now own the character). These form an infinite feedback loop; Aoki states in the post special-airing episode that Altair has at least 90 "Movements of the Cosmos," and that since she's constantly getting stronger due to being constantly recreated, there is no way to defeat her in armed confrontation ordinarily. She's essentially a living god.

    So long as they are in the real world, the rest of the creations will be unable to beat her, since she can effectively nullify them as she pleases. Thus, the plan is devised that all of the creators will work together on a novel which includes all of their characters and Altair, such that they can alter the global consciousness to the point where it is accepted that Altair can be defeated (this will also power up the creations themselves). At a minimum, they need three to six months to do this. They also need to acquire the copyrights of each intellectual property involved.

    By this time, it's also made clear that Altair's abilities are now strong enough that she's beginning to be able to override the "healing factor" of the world and exploit the contradictions between the story-worlds and the real world.

    The focus then turns to Blitz and Alice, who are meeting at an undisclosed location; having finally questioned the events of Mamika's death, she thinks to ask him about the details. When he responds with what amounts to a poker face, she realizes that he's lying. As it turns out, she thought to read up on him. After fighting Blitz off, Aliceteria rescues her own creator and begins to interrogate him thusly:

    "Alice: Selesia's author is a worse man than you and yet you haven't the courage to take account of yourself
    Takarada: I was wrong I was wrong sorry!
    Alice: I ask you, what is my world to you? You want to save it?
    Takarada: It's your role to save the world, not mine!
    Alice: I met a teenager in this world who saw the works of my world (that is, Souta). He said that your work, my world, is an unfortunate world, but at the same time it tells a story of justice and courage. I want to ask you, was that your intent? Is my world worth dying for?
    Takarada: maybe ...
    Alice: maybe?
    Takarada: writing the work has been embarrassing for me.
    Alice: Oh, so you have become ashamed of my world, and of me (?)
    Takarada: Not just yet! That's right! Why else would I attempt to rework it for you?
    Alice: Fine. I'm setting you free; you can thank that boy I mentioned."

    Altair's CV also notes that her second favorite character is Blitz, because "He is Altair's most trusted subordinate, whom she told told the truth; even after learning this, he is still loyal to her.""


    Last edited by firemagnet; 06-18-2017 at 09:27 PM.

  7. #187
    Captain Kranesh's Avatar
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    @firemagnet That is very interesting information indeed, I honestly don't mind spoilers but I'm gonna leave some of this stuff untouched so I can be surprised next week XD




  8. #188
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kranesh View Post
    @firemagnet That is very interesting information indeed, I honestly don't mind spoilers but I'm gonna leave some of this stuff untouched so I can be surprised next week XD
    As for me, I'm just excited. We get a better sense of urgency, we see whether or not much of our theory-crafting was right, and we set the stage for some really epic encounters. My only fear is that with the launch of Fate/Apocrypha on July 1, Re:Creators is going to be completely overshadowed because of the weight the Fate series has.

    The funny part was that a post I made on MAL got crossposted by someone else on Reddit for a summary of what Altair is (before I read the spoilers) and became the top comment:

    "Another user on MAL explained how Setsuna created Altair in a very concise way, so I thought I'd share it (https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topic...97#msg51148652).
    It seems that shortly thereafter, Setsuna Shimazaki published Altair: World Etude as a rhetorical "are you not entertained?" to her critics, incorporating all the features that her "haters" thought such a character should have--chuuni tendencies, ridiculous powers, etc. Judging by her previous artwork, which incorporated lots of bright colors and peaceful settings, Altair was intended to be nothing less than the avatar of Setsuna's revenge; a final "fuck you" to the world which, she felt, had rejected her--a lasting proof of her existence." "

    The best response to my post that got crossposted was "holy shit, that actually makes sense."



  9. #189
    Marshal Admiral KotoNano's Avatar
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    @firemagnet Yeah that's the issue. You change it for better pacing and have purists bite your ballsack off in anger, or you please the purists and keep the dreadful pacing to keep the plot closer to the manga at the cost of those watching it.

    The series was doomed at the start with season 2, the same way Haruhi was doomed when they decided to do the whole endless 8 arch over multiple episodes.



    Wake me up if Yuzuki or Fiume get added

  10. #190
    Moderator Leyana's Avatar
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    I just watched SukaSuka 10 and I'm like wait. What.

    I need someone to explain the show to me.



 

 

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