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  1. #171
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
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    Regarding SnK/AoT 2nd Season:

    @M.A.Mitscher: Behind on shows and since I'm spoiled for this, it's low priority (also spoiled on Berserk, but like that series better so I'll get to that before AoT, visual quality be damned). Still, although not caught up, having read the manga this doesn't surprise me. The manga's fairly front loaded in terms of battles/action vs world-building, more character background/development, etc., so now that's being done.

    @KotoNano: Well, it does get more political, but IMO you need some context. Nothing but battles only goes so far. Not suggesting it's the best thing ever written, and yeah, it does slow down, but I also don't think it entirely devolves into a bad mess either.

    @Kalinsre: That's a good point, but if I recall correctly (if being key here). According to this article, the reason is due to lack of budget, studio production staff, etc. I do think you have a point though. There's a lot of backstory being filled in with S2, so a 2-cour run would give more time to insert more battles as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by firemagnet View Post
    1.The male lead is frustrating, but he has his reasons for being so, given that he feels responsible for the death of a friend and he's ashamed. It's very difficult to talk to about that with anyone, and I can say that from having observed people who are like that. You don't talk because you're afraid of being judged and you don't know who to trust.

    2.As for Aliceteria, the knight.........she genuinely cared for Mamika, but she accepted Magane's explanation at face value because she was already prejudiced against Meteora. In the simple logic that she was written with by her creator--sculpted from years of fighting against an inhuman enemy--there is only those who are with or those who are against her. So desperate is she to fulfill what her narrative has set out for her that she'll blindly swallow lies if it means she can destroy her enemies. She's not stupid so much as she is utterly blind.

    3. Magane's ability is played increasingly fast and loose as time goes on. The bookkeeper accused or called her out her directly, as did Aliceteria, but Yuuya's first denial was more abstract and his second wasn't a denial at all. Which suggests that her power is either broadening or she's smart enough to do her own research. The latter is far more disturbing. That being said, I still stand by my criticism of her. She's too flat, completely unchallenged, and comes off as the generic monster of the week. She'd be better if Heath Ledger's Joker hadn't already done what she's sort of trying to do with far more menace, wit, and guile.

    4. ["She always just happens to be around when it's advantageous for her. Just so happens to be the first to reach Mahou-Shoujo girl so Alice can be duped."]
    which is why my general comment about her is that she's a transparent plot device. OTOH, this may suggest that the world is slowly adapting to the logic required to maintain the characters. We also don't see how or if Magane is consistently tracking the other characters, TBH.

    5. Altair's powers are creation and deconstruction, in all their applications. From what we know, she can transit between worlds, summon other characters, create clones, and deconstruct weaponry and machinery--but only of the created. She can't do that to the real world--yet. It's best to think of the whole thing as a hard disk onto which profiles and programs are loaded, with the profiles being the creators and the programs being the created. I find that it's easier to understand that way. Note her reference to the "pillar" of the world. The way she speaks of it suggests that she doesn't just intend to destroy the world, but to recreate it in her own image. The problem is that she has the ability to do it, too. To refer again to the analogy of a hard drive or computer, her objective is to crash the system by forcing the other programs to perform logic errors and--before the system can reboot and remove the offending data--purge the system and load new data from her own source.
    1) I get that the ML feels guilty since he was mean to his friend out of jealousy, and she ended up meeting a train the wrong way. Regardless, worlds (again plural) on the line here. He could have said "Hey, I found her source material", and leave it at that while he struggles with his guilt. Plot bailed him out a bit since Altair was discovered fairly quickly after he figured it out (though another question is whether that could/should have been done sooner, but whatever). Overall, he's just not been a great character IMO, and NOT because he isn't super hax protagonist either.

    What I'm not entirely clear on is whether he was the artist or not for Altair. Maybe I missed that in the binge watching. Furthermore, even if he is, how/why did Altair recognize him? The other characters don't know who their creators are off the bat. Was Altair around before her creator died, and thus learned about the overall situation - including the ML? Did she research after the fact - IDK, go through her creator's e-mails, find a suicide note or something?

    2) It's quite clear that Alice cared for Mamika (I assume that's the Mahou-Shoujo girl). Also get that she's prejudiced against Meteora as the "enemy". However, as we saw, she was also prejudiced/didn't trust/saw for what she was when it came to Magane. That's the issue to me. I get your point, but still, if one (correctly) suspects that Megane is a "poisonous liar", then I would not think one should immediately take what she says at face value either. For a supposed good guy knight, Alice doesn't seem to give a crap about being right before killing fools. All in all, Alice just seems dumb, easily manipulated to me. If you want to say "that's her character", then why doesn't that same line of reasoning apply to Megane? Granted JMO, but I don't see Alice as any better of a character than Megane at this point. Both are pretty one dimensional IMO. IF Alice wises up, then OK. Then again, we might get more backstory on Magane as well.

    3 & 4) Regarding Megane's powers, yes, that's a problem IMO for the reasons I stated above. For any story, set your rules, stick to them, and if you must have exceptions, then explain that sh*t well. Don't agree about plot device. Just strikes me as plot convenience (which is not good screen writing) which has happened for both sided (e.g. xyz appearing at just the right moment). Also don't agree with you about Megane in general. She's not the bestest character ever, but I think you're too harsh. Heath Ledger's Joker is a widely critically acclaimed performance which is still being talked about today. THAT is your standard? Do ANY of these character match up to that level? As for "unchallenged", what about Altair? Right now she's pretty hax - who can take her down right now? Can Magane even do that? I have some serious doubts on that even with Magane's plot dependent powers.

    5) First see above about hax/op, though that can often be better than protagonist hax/op since it's a challenge rather than just pawnage. Either way, have to be careful in terms of balance. There is some restriction on her (the pillar deal), but how long will that last? The hard drive analogy helps, but if she erases the hard drives (plural really), then how she not erase herself? My take right now is that Altair doesn't care if she dies or not as long as she can take everyone else with her. Altair's dialog in Ep. 08 is "I will destroy everything, including you. Destroy, and destroy, and destroy more, until everything in this world disappears." That's pretty definitive.


    Last edited by goesto11; 06-13-2017 at 03:37 AM. Reason: grammar
    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  2. #172
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goesto11 View Post
    Regarding SnK/AoT 2nd Season:

    @M.A.Mitscher: Behind on shows and since I'm spoiled for this, it's low priority (also spoiled on Berserk, but like that series better so I'll get to that before AoT, visual quality be damned). Still, although not caught up, having read the manga this doesn't surprise me. The manga's fairly front loaded in terms of battles/action vs world-building, more character background/development, etc., so now that's being done.

    @KotoNano: Well, it does get more political, but IMO you need some context. Nothing but battles only goes so far. Not suggesting it's the best thing ever written, and yeah, it does slow down, but I also don't think it entirely devolves into a bad mess either.

    @Kalinsre: That's a good point, but if I recall correctly (if being key here). According to this article, the reason is due to lack of budget, studio production staff, etc. I do think you have a point though. There's a lot of backstory being filled in with S2, so a 2-cour run would give more time to insert more battles as well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    1) I get that the ML feels guilty since he was mean to his friend out of jealousy, and she ended up meeting a train the wrong way. Regardless, worlds (again plural) on the line here. He could have said "Hey, I found her source material", and leave it at that while he struggles with his guilt. Plot bailed him out a bit since Altair was discovered fairly quickly after he figured it out (though another question is whether that could/should have been done sooner, but whatever). Overall, he's just not been a great character IMO, and NOT because he isn't super hax protagonist either.

    What I'm not entirely clear on is whether he was the artist or not for Altair. Maybe I missed that in the binge watching. Furthermore, even if he is, how/why did Altair recognize him? The other characters don't know who their creators are off the bat. Was Altair around before her creator died, and thus learned about the overall situation - including the ML? Did she research after the fact - IDK, go through her creator's e-mails, find a suicide note or something?

    2) It's quite clear that Alice cared for Mamika (I assume that's the Mahou-Shoujo girl). Also get that she's prejudiced against Meteora as the "enemy". However, as we saw, she was also prejudiced/didn't trust/saw for what she was when it came to Magane. That's the issue to me. I get your point, but still, if one (correctly) suspects that Megane is a "poisonous liar", then I would not think one should immediately take what she says at face value either. For a supposed good guy knight, Alice doesn't seem to give a crap about being right before killing fools. All in all, Alice just seems dumb, easily manipulated to me. If you want to say "that's her character", then why doesn't that same line of reasoning apply to Megane? Granted JMO, but I don't see Alice as any better of a character than Megane at this point. Both are pretty one dimensional IMO. IF Alice wises up, then OK. Then again, we might get more backstory on Magane as well.

    3 & 4) Regarding Megane's powers, yes, that's a problem IMO for the reasons I stated above. For any story, set your rules, stick to them, and if you must have exceptions, then explain that sh*t well. Don't agree about plot device. Just strikes me as plot convenience (which is not good screen writing) which has happened for both sided (e.g. xyz appearing at just the right moment). Also don't agree with you about Megane in general. She's not the bestest character ever, but I think you're too harsh. Heath Ledger's Joker is a widely critically acclaimed performance which is still being talked about today. THAT is your standard? Do ANY of these character match up to that level? As for "unchallenged", what about Altair? Right now she's pretty hax - who can take her down right now? Can Magane even do that? I have some serious doubts on that even with Magane's plot dependent powers.

    5) First see above about hax/op, though that can often be better than protagonist hax/op since it's a challenge rather than just pawnage. Either way, have to be careful in terms of balance. There is some restriction on her (the pillar deal), but how long will that last? The hard drive analogy helps, but if she erases the hard drives (plural really), then how she not erase herself? My take right now is that Altair doesn't care if she dies or not as long as she can take everyone else with her. Altair's dialog in Ep. 08 is "I will destroy everything, including you. Destroy, and destroy, and destroy more, until everything in this world disappears." That's pretty definitive.

    1a. Yes he's made stupid decisions, but as someone on reddit pointed out, the fact that these characters hide things, feel ashamed, lose sight of the truth, panic and do generally stupid shit makes them all the more human. Which is actually one of Magane's flaws as a character: she doesn't make mistakes.

    2a. Aliecteria's situation isn't quite as simple as I originally described. Again, as someone more insightful than me pointed out, Aliceteria explicitly states that she no longer knows what the truth is. My observation is that she's unable to ground herself, so instead of trying to find the truth she's going on a rampage of revenge against people she's already prejudiced against--in this case Meteora.

    3a. Magane's powers are broadening more slowly than I originally thought. In the case of episode 10, she actually baited Yuuya as follows : "You should give her to me since you don't make good use of her" to which he eventually responded "Give her to you? Who the fuck are you kidding?" That being said, the conditions under which she can activate her power are clearly becoming more abstract in terms of what she considers to be a denial or lie against a lie.

    4a. Yes, Heath Ledger's joker is my standard, precisely because the role was done so well and precisely because the role and character type has been so overused that it's stale. To the point that other than Bane, Dexter, the Joker and Harley Quinn, Light (Deathnote) I really cannot name any characters that are memorable who warrant comparison..............And they're all better than Magane in her role. It's also because people are claiming that she's "smart" because she can "make others her bitches," sort of like this vicious little dipshit who's been arguing with me for the past three threads in a row because he was so stupid as to make that exact argument and I called him out on it (handle is the same on MAL as it is here) :

    https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topic...50#msg51081153

    Other than her ability, nothing stands out for me and she relies on it far too much. Magane just doesn't have any "oomph" to her, doesn't project menace, and is impossible to take seriously precisely because she's so ridiculously overdone. I can also cite Bane, and Dexter, both of whom had more depth. Hell, even Harley Quinn from DC/Suicide squad has more depth. Harley Quinn is clearly and absolutely batshit insane, and also impossible to take seriously, but that's not the point of her character. She's second fiddle, designed to fulfill that role, and does so in a way that still makes her human.

    Magane, just doesn't seem human, but she's so much the stock villain that it ruins any suspense of disbelief, particularly where it relates to her goals. For instance, let's consider the goals of Dexter, Bane, Light, The Joker and Harley Quinn by comparison:

    Dexter: satisfy his habit while remaining as "human" as possible and genuinely trying to care for those around him. His effort is what makes him human.

    Bane: ideology and revenge.

    Light: his own concept of justice.

    Joker: underlying hatred of others and the need to prove that he's right about the essential human condition.

    Harley Quinn: Joker, and the need to be accepted/loved by him.


    Each of these characters is fundamentally desctructive, none more so than Heath Ledger's portrayal. Yet some shred of them still remains normal: Bane is consumed by his rage, Dexter is as above; Light still has an ego to satisfy which proves to be his undoing; the Joker can become visibly afraid and dissapointed; Harley-Quinn is still capable of love.

    Magane has none of these. She's on or off, all broad strokes and as I mentioned before, she always finds a way to weasel out of things (which is what I meant by she's not challenged), never feels bad about herself, never stops to think twice, never questions anything, always shows up where she's most convenient........even her goal (the miracle emperor plan of become a god of chaos) is merely her original goal of killing on a whim writ large. As a villain she's impeccable, unsubtle, and almost infantile, which also makes her uninteresting. Every time she appears she gets to push the "I win" button.

    To expand upon this, let's look at Altair. Altair is absurdly powerful, more so than Magane. Yet she's still profoundly human; first, she has something beyond herself (her creator) whom she cares for deeply, so much so that she's willing to commit suicide to right what she believes to be a wrong. Second, she is visibly and openly flawed, with a massive ego, more than a little narcissism, and a desperate need to be seen as a messiah. She manipulates, but is also manipulate-able (see: mamika), has her quiet moments, gets upset, throws tantrums, shows off, gets surprised, and most of all is occasionally unpredictable (see: mamika. sup: didn't see that sort of rage coming). Some have said "oh look, another Chuunibyou," but Altair puts her own spin on it, despite not being particularly memorable. Her relationships with Aliceteria and Blitz also invite deeper consideration.

    None of this exists with Magane. You can literally see her riding the escalator to godhood for the sake of sheer contrivance.

    5a. See: 4a. Altair is fundamentally balanced. Magane isn't. I can't boil it down any further.



  3. #173
    Marshal Admiral KotoNano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goesto11 View Post
    Regarding SnK/AoT 2nd Season:

    @M.A.Mitscher: Behind on shows and since I'm spoiled for this, it's low priority (also spoiled on Berserk, but like that series better so I'll get to that before AoT, visual quality be damned). Still, although not caught up, having read the manga this doesn't surprise me. The manga's fairly front loaded in terms of battles/action vs world-building, more character background/development, etc., so now that's being done.

    @KotoNano: Well, it does get more political, but IMO you need some context. Nothing but battles only goes so far. Not suggesting it's the best thing ever written, and yeah, it does slow down, but I also don't think it entirely devolves into a bad mess either.

    @Kalinsre: That's a good point, but if I recall correctly (if being key here). According to this article, the reason is due to lack of budget, studio production staff, etc. I do think you have a point though. There's a lot of backstory being filled in with S2, so a 2-cour run would give more time to insert more battles as well.
    Yeah context matters for the battles, having it open in it's surprising straight to the point way is fine but you need context for it. The first season starts this going well, you have them do training then join the expedition corps to leave then their basically out in titan territory, good so far simple enough for it to have more action. They end up having people betray them who also can turn into titans, that's ok there's another country out there that has different beliefs and have secretive goals thats good to have as something to go on.
    Manga spoilers
    [+] Spoiler

    But then the whole royalty thing and constant backstabbing and heavy political drama as they end up trying to overthrow the goverment gets a bit frustrating as it just keeps adding one thing ontop of the other and the action isn't nearly as interesting and I don't think you even see a proper titan for like 20~30 chapters outside that one underground battle.

    It has started to pick up lately when they finally went back to where it all started and went into the basement, but I'd of liked this shit to happen before the royal upstage so they at least know more about the world, what's going on and THEN decide to do it with a purpose.
    That whole arc in the middle was so long and drawn out I don't even remember what the entire point of it was.

    Although I think with the manga, my biggest issue is the artists style while good, makes it hard to tell characters apart at times. I went a few chapters not even knowing who was talking to who since I couldn't place the names. I think that partly is on me though and from how the anime looks it feels it'd be easier to remember.

    The lack of budget to make a full half-year run makes sense though, I think while AoT was really popular in the west it was only average ratings in JP itself, if it was as popular as SJ powerhouses then it wouldn't have had a 20~odd episode season and would of just kept running. It is something I will probably get around to watching, as much as I've complained about it I do enjoy the series as a manga so I should just watch it sometime to refresh on it. I don't even know where in the story season 1 ended or where season 2 is, I just know at the time the first season aired i was already up to date on the manga and have kept up with it since so a lot of the earlier stuff in the story is vague to me (due to reading/watching/playing too many stories).


    Last edited by KotoNano; 06-13-2017 at 02:01 PM.

  4. #174
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Re:Creators OST is out. The whole thing can be listened to here:
    [+] Spoiler



    tracklisting:

    Disc 1
    Track 01 ⌈ 00:00:00 ⌋ God of ink (Souta's Theme)
    Track 02 ⌈ 00:04:12 ⌋ rE:CRe@T0RS
    Track 03 ⌈ 00:09:49 ⌋ Re:3$penS
    Track 04 ⌈ 00:14:19 ⌋ 4GL4yu8RE:E
    Track 05 ⌈ 00:18:35 ⌋ Hey39-udn
    Track 06 ⌈ 00:22:34 ⌋ RE:3343
    Track 07 ⌈ 00:25:12 ⌋ HERE I AM (Mamika's theme)
    Track 08 ⌈ 00:29:11 ⌋ 2109-a8Ru件
    Track 09 ⌈ 00:32:50 ⌋ AL:Lu
    Track 10 ⌈ 00:37:03 ⌋ 高度8b6n
    Track 11 ⌈ 00:41:38 ⌋ 8sawOGRE6

    Track 12 ⌈
    00:46:05 ⌋ Layers(Selesia's theme) Lyrics are as follows:

    [+] Spoiler
    i will lay down my sword, my rebellion is yours. And i know i'm no the first to have come here. Someone told me you can help me with so many layers.
    i'm a danger
    i'm a stranger
    full of anger but i need to know
    to be with him to be happy oh creator
    (refrain):
    want to find a reason why we have to cry--buildings falling down and no one's there to save us
    gonna find the answer, how to clear this up
    you made these crazy worlds
    i'm stuck between the two
    want to find a reason why my friends all died the magic and machines
    they stopped and the virus set in
    find a good solution, how to fix this up
    you made these crazy worlds i'm stuck between the two
    in a village past the mountains of your world
    someone told her death was coming soon to all of us
    in the tavern: "armageddon,""the horizon" people were talking of a hunger
    many years back i was younger

    (refrain):

    want to find a reason why we have to cry--buildings falling down and no one's there to save us
    gonna find the answer, how to clear this up
    you made these crazy worlds i'm stuck between the two
    want to find a reason why my friends all died the magic and machines they stopped and the virus set in
    find a good solution, how to fix this up
    you made these crazy worlds i'm stuck between the two

    *repeats*



    Track 13 ⌈ 00:49:51 ⌋ re:pianohi1tars
    Track 14 ⌈ 00:53:18 ⌋ ∞GodMachine (Rui Kanoya's theme)
    Track 15 ⌈ 00:57:37 ⌋ ABYSSwaltz (Setsuna's theme)
    Track 16 ⌈ 01:01:51 ⌋ Pf:Creators
    Track 17 ⌈ 01:04:16 ⌋ 音:9RE:eita-zu
    Track 18 ⌈ 01:10:51 ⌋ BRAVE THE OCEAN (Selesia and Matsubara's theme). Lyrics:
    [+] Spoiler

    (?) Over these waves, go and see what i knew; I know why--I know what she's been going through...(?)
    And when you look up to the skies, in most worlds you think of peace, like before.

    To break these chains, we must all rise from feelings of hate.
    And it's blood, sweat, tears! but no revenge should govern our fate
    That time I first realized I cared for you so
    The city below A dance in the dark
    I must end this now It's perfectly clear
    Before it begins The war we all fear

    We can't wait; I want to see what I knew
    It's too late to hope that I might make it through.
    And when you see the light below, I know exactly where to go--back to her.

    *Repeats*



    Disc 2
    Track 01 ⌈ 01:15:15 ⌋ E:verydaytor1
    Track 02 ⌈ 01:21:06 ⌋ Pf:CreatorsII
    Track 03 ⌈ 01:23:29 ⌋ E:verydaytor2
    Track 04 ⌈ 01:27:25 ⌋ Pf:CreatorsIII
    Track 05 ⌈ 01:29:23 ⌋ SawElephant4ゅ
    Track 06 ⌈ 01:33:28 ⌋ Pf:CreatorsIV
    Track 07 ⌈ 01:36:27 ⌋ E:verydaytor3
    Track 08 ⌈ 01:42:21 ⌋ Pf:CreatorsV
    Track 09 ⌈ 01:44:32 ⌋ God々-ground2SAY310
    Track 10 ⌈ 01:49:06 ⌋ Pf:CreatorsVI
    Track 11 ⌈ 01:51:38 ⌋ E:verydaytor4
    Track 12 ⌈ 01:57:17 ⌋ ○DA-world2HEN火90
    Track 13 ⌈ 01:58:56 ⌋ God of ink (RE:Instrumental)
    Track 14 ⌈ 02:03:07 ⌋ HERE I AM (RE:Instrumental)
    Track 15 ⌈ 02:07:04 ⌋ Layers (RE:Instrumental)
    Track 16 ⌈ 02:10:49 ⌋ BRAVE THE OCEAN (RE:Instrumental)




    New characters are also going to be in the second cour, per an interview with Mamika's CV


    Last edited by firemagnet; 06-13-2017 at 11:52 PM.

  5. #175
    Moderator Leyana's Avatar
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    Speaking of music, they released the Sakura Quest ED. I can't stop listening.



  6. #176
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leyana View Post
    Speaking of music, they released the Sakura Quest ED. I can't stop listening.
    Both the Re:creators OST and the Sakura Quest ED are good. They each have their own styles, and I can see why you like the latter. Shame that the Sakura Quest anime isn't that good, though.



  7. #177
    Moderator Leyana's Avatar
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    I dunno. I like Sakura Quest. Not quite Flying Witch but still... fluffy and with a colourful cast.



  8. #178
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
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    @KotoNano: I wonder it might have been better if the allocation between world-building/background context and battles had been more evenly allocated in the story. You wouldn’t get quite as exciting, action-packed S1, but then the differences with S2 wouldn’t be as stark and S2 picks up a bit in general.

    As for the manga, personally the shift doesn't seem as great due to the different mediums. Battles are much more dynamic with the anime than in the manga (as it should & points to anime for that), so I think there’s more contrast when it shifts from battle to info/backstory with the anime. For the manga, I just marathoned it when S2 started (forgot a lot) so it all went by pretty fast. Regarding the spoiler stuff, yeah, I can see your point. Maybe things get a bit more convoluted than they should. IDK. Honestly, I’m not recalling a ton of detail either on that stuff.

    I know that Snk (or AoT) was a big hit with western audiences, but I thought it did well in Japan. Were BD/DVD sales not quite high for S1? At any rate, yes, if Snk wasn’t all that popular in the home market, then not going to get a huge, 2-cour budget. That being said, I’d be quite surprised if S2 was the last SnK season. I think there will be an S3 if not more beyond that.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    @firemagnet: Since this is long, I’ll put most of it in a spoiler. TL:DR version = We still disagree on some matters which is fine. As I’ve noted before, opinions will vary with shows – I’ve disliked characters others liked and vice versa, and you’re entitled to your opinion the same as I or anyone else. I appreciate the detailed response, but I still have a number of questions. Perhaps you don’t know and/or hasn’t been revealed yet, but unless I missed something, the dearth of information muddies things a bit more than I’d like.

    [+] Spoiler

    I’m still confused about the timeline, specifically with Altair. The way it’s presented, her creator kills herself, then I guess Altair comes into being… somehow? It kind of matters because I’m trying to figure out how Altair recognized Souta so early on. Actually, how did Altair know who her creator was in the first place? Furthermore, I’m still not sure if Souta was the illustrator for Altair nor not.

    Re. Souta: I get that people make mistakes. Literally happens daily. However, it’s very hard to dismiss the context here. Souta knows what’s at stake -> WORLD END. That’s… not a small thing. Second of all, there is still the “half-way” option I mentioned about how he could have just said “Hey, I found the character” and left it at that. Maybe his secret would have still been revealed, maybe not, but again, uh, the world’s at stake here. Flaws may make him more “human”, but there are limits to that. There is such a thing as “baka-adorable” (and I do like some characters in that mold), but I don’t think this is such a situation.

    I’ve seen numerous fictional characters roasted because they act too stupid for the audience. Bond villains are an easy example. For an anime example, how about Ichika from Infinite Stratos who’s practically infamous for his denseness and stupidity (best comment I’ve read is that Ichika’s denseness approaches black hole levels. LOL). He’s definitely flawed, but a “good character” because of it? Point here is that there are limits - on either end of the spectrum, and where the “too much/too far” line resides is subjective.

    FWIW, it is NOT all or nothing for me with Souta (nor is he at “Bond villain/Ichika levels”), but he’s still not a very good character IMO. I’ve read complaints about him from the very first episode, and honestly, what’s transpired does not give me any better affinity/sympathy for him.

    Re. Alice:
    Quote Originally Posted by firemagnet View Post
    2a. Aliecteria's situation isn't quite as simple as I originally described. Again, as someone more insightful than me pointed out, Aliceteria explicitly states that she no longer knows what the truth is.
    That’s even worse. She realizes she doesn’t know the truth, she thinks Magane is a poisonous liar, but “Eh, f**k it. Thinking is hard. I’ll just go with the flow.” Sorry, but IMO she’s still too easily manipulated/stupid. That may make her more “human”, but again there are limits to that. However, it's still fairly early so time for potential improvement.

    Re. Magane: First, Yuuya’s response of "Give her to you? Who the fuck are you kidding?" does not in any way shape or form resolve the issue IMO. HOW are those questions “lies”? WTF!? Granted JMO, but that does NOT work as a “reason” for her stealing Hangaku at all. As things stand, Magane just does because the plot demands it. Need to put Team Protagonist in more of a pinch.

    I do not subscribe to what appears to be an “all or nothing” scale you have for characters (i.e. “Yes, Heath Ledger's joker is my standard”). To me, it’s like saying that all the actors/actress who do not get an Academy Award for best actor/actress gave crap performances that year. There is absolutely a wide range from “crap” to “meh” to “not bad” to “good” to “great”, etc., IMO. So we disagree here. I don’t think Magane is that bad.

    Could she use more depth? Sure. So could Yuuya and Blitz for that matter to name a couple characters. Again, unless I’ve missed something we know very little about Blitz. I don’t see how he has any more depth than Magane. Yuuya strikes me as what I call an “omoshiroi character” (i.e. one motivated by entertainment, something interesting which is fairly common in anime). IIRC he even says something to that effect. Now what they find interesting may differ, but Mangane to me is also of that vein. She’s certainly does stuff because it entertains her. That’s not all that unusual for chaos types.

    You mention “normal” a lot which in context reads to me as “flawed”. OK, but look at what you wrote for Altair – “Second, she is visibly and openly flawed, with a massive ego, more than a little narcissism…” How does “massive ego” and “narcissism” not apply to Magane as well? She sure as hell has an ego, and sure seems to me she’s narcissistic as well (could also add sociopath). If those are “visible, open flaws” for Altair, they are also for Magane. As for “She [Altair] manipulates, but is also manipulate-able (see: mamika)”, How did Mamika “manipulate” Altair? She manipulated Altair into… killing her? O.o Mamika naively sought to “save” Altair and failed miserably. All she succeeded in doing was reveal that she realized Altair’s true goal, expressly stated that she would oppose Altair in said goal, and Altair got pissed off and killed her. Thus, I disagree with your assertion that “None of this exists with Magane.”

    I also think your premise of “You can literally see her [Magane] riding the escalator to godhood for the sake of sheer contrivance” is too extreme. Magane hasn’t been defeated in battle… yet (LOT of show left), but her little experiment with Souta failed. Wasn’t Meteora able to avoid Magane’s “lies” ability trap? So Megane’s neither perfect nor ascending to “godhood”. Again I ask, as things currently stand, who do you think will win if Altair and Magane fight to the death? I honestly do not see how Altair loses that battle given her powers. Are you suggesting that Magane can’t be defeated? By the end of the show, Magane wins? Be one hell of a twist, but one I would not bet on.

    Short version of all that is my opinion of Magane remains the same. She’s not as great as some comments have suggested, but she’s not as bad as you suggest either. You very well may still disagree which is fine. We can agree to disagree on this.


    Last edited by goesto11; 06-14-2017 at 01:20 AM.
    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  9. #179
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goesto11 View Post

    -snip-
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    @firemagnet: Since this is long, I'll put most of it in a spoiler. TL:DR version = We still disagree on some matters which is fine. As I've noted before, opinions will vary with shows I've disliked characters others liked and vice versa, and you're entitled to your opinion the same as I or anyone else. I appreciate the detailed response, but I still have a number of questions. Perhaps you don't know and/or hasn't been revealed yet, but unless I missed something, the dearth of information muddies things a bit more than I'd like.

    I'm still confused about the timeline, specifically with Altair. The way it's presented, her creator kills herself, then I guess Altair comes into being somehow? It kind of matters because I'm trying to figure out how Altair recognized Souta so early on. Actually, how did Altair know who her creator was in the first place? Furthermore, I'm still not sure if Souta was the illustrator for Altair nor not.
    Altair has a unique link with Setsuna. Episode 2 shows this, but It's never really elaborated on. One of the best theories I've seen (And one that I guessed myself) is that Altair is Setsuna. Given that no other creator/created share that bond, it would seem that Altair body-jacked Setsuna. Of course, we have no way to confirm this yet. Presumably this will be expanded upon in future episodes.

    As for Souta, Altair seems to know about him through her memories, which is my best guess. To elaborate based upon what we've seen (particularly in episode 10), I'm going to propose a theory. When Setsuna is hit by the train she throws herself in front of, she does in fact die. Yet keep in mind that in episode 1, we never actually see the train hit her. In all likelihood Altair took control and projected her "image" onto Setsuna's body at the moment of the hit; the way Altair communicates with and speaks of Setsuna implies that Setsuna is still able to see the world through her.

    Really, we need to wait for more information.


    Re. Souta: I get that people make mistakes. Literally happens daily. However, it's very hard to dismiss the context here. Souta knows what's at stake -> WORLD END. That's not a small thing. Second of all, there is still the half-way option I mentioned about how he could have just said "Hey, I found the character," and left it at that. Maybe his secret would have still been revealed, maybe not, but again, uh, the world's at stake here. Flaws may make him more human, but there are limits to that. There is such a thing as baka-adorable (and I do like some characters in that mold), but I don't think this is such a situation.


    I've seen numerous fictional characters roasted because they act too stupid for the audience. Bond villains are an easy example. For an anime example, how about Ichika from Infinite Stratos who's practically infamous for his denseness and stupidity (best comment I've read is that Ichika's denseness approaches black hole levels. LOL). He's definitely flawed, but a good character because of it? Point here is that there are limits - on either end of the spectrum, and where the too much/too far line resides is subjective.

    FWIW, it is NOT all or nothing for me with Souta (nor is he at Bond villain/Ichika levels), but he's still not a very good character IMO. I've read complaints about him from the very first episode, and honestly, what's transpired does not give me any better affinity/sympathy for him.
    Re: Souta, the way I understand is that he genuinely didn't remember until episode 6 or so. He was so traumatized by Setsuna's death that he actually forgot about it; when Magane grills him over it in episode 8 he actually begins hyperventilating and having a panic attack over it. That's where the level of his guilt resides.

    The reason why I'm willing to suspend my disbelief over Souta is because of things like this:
    http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewco...iatrics_facpub

    I took courses on death, dying and the process of bereavement in college, so I can see where Souta is coming from. I can understand the pain, the shame, the unwillingness to act. All of it is driven by the fact that he feels personally responsible for Setsuna's death, as though he pushed her off of the platform himself. The real impact of his inaction on others has only now just hit him with Meteora getting badly injured.

    I agree that he's not necessarily a good character, but I don't find him intolerable.



    Re. Alice:


    That's even worse. She realizes she doesn't know the truth, she thinks Magane is a poisonous liar, but "eh, f**k it. Thinking is hard. I'll just go with the flow." Sorry, but IMO she's still too easily manipulated/stupid. That may make her more human, but again there are limits to that. However, it's still fairly early so time for potential improvement.
    What's kept me going WRT Alice, Meteora, etc is the realization that this anime is very much a narrative of narratives and the construction of narratives, about what it means to be human and to have goals. I'll hedge on Aliceteria being bullheaded (as written), but it's also clear to me that most of her actions are now calculated on prejudice and a need for revenge. She's letting herself being manipulated because it suits her already existing attitudes on things like "the world of the gods," "justice" and so on. She's lost her world, learned everything she was was to be a lie, had her sense of justice and opinions attacked, and feels powerless to stop the death of people she cares about. The one thing she still has is strength, and the ability to use it. Small wonder then that she lashes out at someone who she already hates (Meteora) if only to prove to herself that she's still "doing the right thing." As of episode 10, however, Aliceteria is essentially out of the fight for psychological reasons.




    Re. Magane: First, Yuuya's response of "Give her to you? Who the fuck are you kidding?" does not in any way shape or form resolve the issue IMO. HOW are those questions lies? WTF!? Granted JMO, but that does NOT work as a reason for her stealing Hangaku at all. As things stand, Magane just does because the plot demands it. Need to put Team Protagonist in more of a pinch.

    I do not subscribe to what appears to be an "all or nothing" scale you have for characters (i.e. "Yes, Heath Ledger's joker is my standard"). To me, it's like saying that all the actors/actress who do not get an Academy Award for best actor/actress gave crap performances that year. There is absolutely a wide range from crap to meh to not bad to good to great, etc., IMO. So we disagree here. I don't think Magane is that bad.

    Could she use more depth? Sure. So could Yuuya and Blitz for that matter to name a couple characters. Again, unless I've missed something we know very little about Blitz. I don't see how he has any more depth than Magane. Yuuya strikes me as what I call an "omoshiroi character" (i.e. one motivated by entertainment, something interesting which is fairly common in anime). IIRC he even says something to that effect. Now what they find interesting may differ, but Mangane to me is also of that vein. She's certainly does stuff because it entertains her. That's not all that unusual for chaos types.
    Re her power: I don't know either.

    Re herself: I held her up to joker and such as counterpoint to all the shitposters on MAL who were calling her "villain of the season" or "villain of the year," so I went out of my way to provide examples of villains in the same role who did it so much better (and there are many). Magane isn't awful, but she is poorly written, grossly exaggerated, and comes of as the "first boss" type whose only role is to show how dangerous the opposing faction is. She just doesn't stand out from the dozens of other generic anime villains who have her traits. She's a one-trick pony, in short. This wouldn't be too bad if her appearances weren't also very contrived and transparent for the purpose of moving the plot forward. Perhaps I'll appreciate her more if she moves beyond her goal being merely to "have as much fun as possible by killing and torturing as many people as possible."

    You mention normal a lot which in context reads to me as flawed. OK, but look at what you wrote for Altair: "Second, she is visibly and openly flawed, with a massive ego, more than a little narcissism." How does "massive ego" and "narcissism" not apply to Magane as well? She sure as hell has an ego, and sure seems to me she's narcissistic as well (could also add sociopath). If those are "visible, open flaws" for Altair, they are also for Magane. As for "She [Altair] manipulates, but is also manipulate-able (see: mamika)", How did Mamika "manipulate" Altair? She manipulated Altair into killing her? O.o Mamika naively sought to "save" Altair and failed miserably. All she succeeded in doing was reveal that she realized Altair's true goal, expressly stated that she would oppose Altair in said goal, and Altair got pissed off and killed her. Thus, I disagree with your assertion that "None of this exists with Magane"

    I also think your premise of "You can literally see her [Magane] riding the escalator to godhood for the sake of sheer contrivance" is too extreme. Magane hasn't been defeated in battle yet (LOT of show left), but her little experiment with Souta failed. Wasn't Meteora able to avoid Magane's ability trap? So Megane's neither perfect nor ascending to godhood.

    Short version of all that is my opinion of Magane remains the same. She's not as great as some comments have suggested, but she's not as bad as you suggest either. You very well may still disagree which is fine. We can agree to disagree on this.
    I'm very bad at explaining my feelings and observations about characters it seems. What it boils down to ultimately for me is whether or not the characters are relate-able and how they're executed. To give slightly more depth to this, I'll quote a common refrain on character: "You are what you are in the dark"

    For instance, Altair is just a slightly-above-average fan-chuunibyou, but I enjoy her because the way she's written and how she has to execute her plan forces her to adjust. Things don't always go her way, and when they don't she reacts in a way that feels human and can be understood. Moreover, she doesn't feel entirely transparent. I saw Mamika's death coming from a mile away, but I certainly didn't expect Altair to just explode the way she did. The way she's executed allows me to continue my suspense of disbelief and keeps the narrative going in a way that feels natural. The more we see her, the more is revealed about her, and the more we see hints of her own conflicts, even if she's single-minded and suicidal and purpose. When Mamika tried to "save her," we finally got to see the "real" Altair behind the mask of grandiosity that she likes to put on.

    I don't get that sense with Magane. She's loud, grossly exaggerated, and completely obvious. She doesn't just have a mask, she is the mask, and it doesn't seem like there's anything beneath it. We never see her doing anything other than strutting in front of what amounts to a captive audience, and she faces no real adversity that would reveal any more character; Whenever she fights with another one of the created, she basically gets to hit the big red "I win" button if they try to fight her physically, since she will inevitably manipulate them into triggering her ability Sure, she loses out to Meteora and Souta, but that's only because they refuse to fight her. As such, she basically suffers no consequences, no matter what she does or doesn't do. So, even though she's outmatched physically, she's always on the offense. She feels like this dude, Trilliam, from Aldnoah Zero, Season 1, episode 3:



    You know, the idiot with the mech whose only weakpoint was a tiny spot on the back of his mech:



    Trilliam gloats, he plays with his opponents, and he is oh so boringly and exaggeratedly evil. He's so convinced of his superiority that not once does he take any reasonable precaution because his mech does it all for him. Aldnoah Zero spends 3 episodes with him just to establish that the threat that the martians represent and the depth of their villainy, to prove that they are capable of visiting every sort of evil upon their opponents merely because they can.

    Magane's exactly like him. She just doesn't feel real or human in any sense of the word, to the point that she feels like a parody. She's also completely unsympathetic as a character.

    Again I ask, as things currently stand, who do you think will win if Altair and Magane fight to the death? I honestly do not see how Altair loses that battle given her powers. Are you suggesting that Magane can't be defeated? By the end of the show, Magane wins? Be one hell of a twist, but one I would not bet on.
    I'm hedging, a 50/50 chance either way, but otherwise I am solidly in favour of Altair. Altair wins physically, but Magane is a cunning manipulator who already knows the name "Altair," if someone as naive as Mamika can figure it out, then it isn't beyond Magane either. Magane would be one "Uso!" away from nullifying a chunk of Altair's abilities but, crucially, not all of them. It would be entirely within the realm of reason to see Altair summon another clone of Magane to fight Magane herself.

    It's still a fight I hope to see though, simply because it will be glorious to see Magane get her illusions of superiority wiped away and realize that she's genuinely facing someone who could very well kill her.


    Last edited by firemagnet; 06-14-2017 at 05:15 AM.

  10. #180
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
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    @firemagnet:
    Re. Questions: Yes, definitely a lot to explain, including how Altair came to exist in "RL". I guess possession/soul merge/something can work, but hopefully decent explanation of it. It's a fantasy show, so I do have to give some suspension of disbelief. It would, however, at least explain how Altair knows about Souta early on. Still, if that's the case, then wonder why she hasn't just gone and killed Souta. She does hate him - right? Dude's been on his own unprotected off and on so plenty of opportunity. Wouldn't take long. Oh, sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, but should I assume that Souta has no creative involvement with Altair? That seems to be the case. I also wonder what there is to Altair being a "secondary character" (I think that's the term). Have to think there's more to that than "FYI". Anyway, yes, lot of episodes left to fill in missing information.

    Re. Souta: You have a point and I get it, but again, the stakes are as high as possible. Plus, he was a total ass to his friend. My hero? Just seems character balance with him is a bit off. JMO. I'm not sure if he's quite at intolerable levels for me yet though he was trying at times. Anyway, we've entered the Souta redemption phase. Lastly, I will say that if the Altair = Setsuna theory is correct, I hope the climatic struggle to save the world doesn't simply end with crying apologies and a hug.

    Re. Alice: I get what you’re saying. However, flawed, stubborn, whatever, there are limits and for me she's crossed into too stupid/easily manipulated territory.

    Re. Magane's Powers: You don't know, I don't know... Do the screen writers know?

    Re. Magane: Ugh. How to keep this short(er). First, even though I'm only watching a few shows, I wouldn’t say she “villain of the season” let alone year. Again, I’m in the middle on this one.

    Understand the analogy with Trilliam of Adlnoah Zero (which IMO had significant issues including ML and "Oh, she's totally dead" "No, wait she's fine after all"), but he & Magane are materially different IMO. That guy is cliché one-dimensional and at “Bond villain” levels stupid. He’s a disposable enemy (as were a few of them). Magane IMO is better than that. Sorry, but she does give off an intelligent vibe unlike that guy. Yes, the plot gives her opportunity, but she takes advantage of that beyond "Hulk Magane smash!" Mind games (incl. her nebulous "lies turned inside out" powers) are her thing. That does take some level of intelligence. I suspect you disagree and that’s a significant, material difference. Two, this guy just blathers on with stupid trash talk. Thing about trash talk is that whether you back it up or not makes ALL the difference. Trash-talk and pull it off? Well, I'm not a fan of trash talking, but you did back up your words so have to give some credit. Fail and it's "LMAO! What a fool." That guy spectacularly fails (in cliche' stupid comic book evil style). He's essentially defeated by... water (same weakness as the aliens in Signs >_>. "Allergic to Earth" is a bad trope for alien movies/shows).

    Quote Originally Posted by firemagnet View Post
    What it boils down to ultimately for me is whether or not the characters are relate-able and how they're executed.
    Well execution affects just about everything with a show, and good execution can make up for a significant number of shortcomings. As for "relatable", personally I wouldn’t say “relatable” is a criteria when it comes to villains, but rather "credible". Of course "credible", just like "relatable", is subjective. Perhaps I’m more amenable to “let the world burn" villains than you. Have to do it right of course, but one of my favorite all time anime villains (maybe just villains period) is the Major from Hellsing Ultimate/OVA. I'm not always a big fan of such over-the-top, bombastic stuff, but Hellsing Ultimate/OVA just works for me (other than the very YMMV comedy). NOTE: There ARE significant difference between the Major and Magane, and the Major is IMO a MUCH better villain, but he does have a smarmy attitude, taunts at times, and definitely a "let the world burn" attitude (Major's Speech).

    I agree that the dearth of information on Megane isn't helping matters, but I still contend that we know as much, if not more, about her than Blitz. Maybe I missed something in the rush to catch up, but that dude just shows up, "Yo~ I'm on Altair's side" and that's about it. I'll be honest, to me right now Magane's at least as good as that guy is.

    Though I don’t think Blitz has been truly defeated(?), he does struggle more than Magane so far. Still, I think another difference in viewpoint is that I just don’t see Magane as all that omnipotent, unbeatable. Might be proven wrong on that, but TBH, I’m not sure if she makes it to the end of the show. So as for the fight, while I'm still not very clear on what Altair can do, given your description of Altair's powers ("creation and deconstruction, in all their applications", the hard drive analogy of wiping out worlds) plus you know that she's got more abilities/skills than shown so far, seems to me Altair would win fairly easily. Maybe mess up Magane's powers? Either that or simply what happened with Mamika. *Magane starts monologue -> gets skewered with a bunch of swords mid-sentence*. Not denying the possibility and it would be one hell of a twist if Magane did defeat Altair and become the main villain, but hard to see that happening at this juncture. At any rate, I think Meteora will figure out a way to defeat Magane.


    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


 

 

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