Hello & Welcome to our community. Is this your first visit? Register
  • News & Announcements
      As a counter measurement to Ad spam, newly registered users are required to create a thread in the Introduction Forum before allowing to be able to reply and create threads.
      Please allow some time for posts to be approved. We thank you for your patience on this matter.
Bookmark Thread
Page 21 of 22 FirstFirst ... 1119202122 LastLast
Results 201 to 210 of 213
  1. #201
    Commander Laforet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    296
    Rep
    79
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    @KotoNano

    Well, one can dream. I saw the same unfortunate trend with Warspite where she used several design motifs that could have gone to other ships of her class, and now we are left with a very slim chance of ever seeing more of QEs again.

    Back to the whole FBB thing, I am pretty sure this is a non-issue started by viewers trying to avoid ambiguity: Both fast (api_name=8) and slow (api_name=10) battleships are simply referred to as "戦艦" or battleship in api_mst_stype, and different viewers adopted their own naming scheme calling type 8 "巡洋戦艦" (lit. battlecruiser) or "高速戦艦" (fast battleship). In the context of IJN historiography, "Fast Battleship" is informal term and almost always refers to remodeled Kongo class, however Iowa and Littorio also refer to themselves as "fast battleship" so the ditinction is a bit blurred to say at least.

    In any case it was a vestigial feature. Actual speed was never tied to the ship type even before certain equipment was able to alter it, and the type was most likely invented so Kongo class could not equip AP shells which has not been the case for a quite some time. The speed category itself has been pretty consistent by defining anything with a top speed of 27 knots (Nagato's top trial speed) and less as slow, which I don't really have a problem with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Does this explanation help @goesto11 ?



  2. #202
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Server
    Paramushir Anchorage
    Posts
    4,956
    Rep
    174
    Mentioned
    1649 Post(s)
    @Lafore: It does some. Thanks. Been a while since I've read up on this (I'm more general WWII than just naval) so perhaps others can give greater detail on the RL History for FBB designation. I do recall that "fast battleship" was informal with no uniform speed requirement on top of the fact that BB speed increased as technology ramped (i.e. what was once thought of as fast no longer was). Still, speed is somewhat of a factor, and a slow "fast battleship" is an oxymoron. For Gangut specifically, were any KC players expecting FBB designation? As for the game, it's fine - is what it is anyway (not like the devs care what I think).

    I am having a bit of difficulty separating what part of your comments are for the game itself and RL History. For example, "The speed category itself has been pretty consistent by defining anything with a top speed of 27 knots (Nagato's top trial speed) and less as slow, which I don't really have a problem with." Is that the game's benchmark for a fast BB (not FBB designation) because then King George V and potentially North Carolina class would be FBB in the game, but South Dakota class would be BB (27kn top speed). Using Wikipedia figures here (which has Nagato class at 26kn so don't know if say SD class hit higher than 27kn in trials or not. Too lazy to look up :P). Also, not sure what you mean by "... the type was most likely invented so Kongo class could not equip AP shells..." [emphasis added]


    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  3. #203
    Admiral NanashiYoukai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Server
    Explosive Licking Castle
    Posts
    5,087
    Rep
    159
    Mentioned
    1675 Post(s)
    Someone who already has her should try adding her as to the escort fleet of the combined fleet to see if it will be permitted. I guess that should settle the debate at least from a mechanics standpoint.


    KanDex First Completed 16 February 2016 // HQ Lvl 120! 9 March 2016 // 3rd Anniversary with Hiyou! 31 March 2018

    Kancolle RPG Replay Circle アホウドリ - WE ARE IN! C96 @ 一日目(金) 南地区 ヒ-29a
    Twitch


  4. #204
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Server
    Paramushir Anchorage
    Posts
    4,956
    Rep
    174
    Mentioned
    1649 Post(s)
    @NanashiYoukai: True - definitely worth testing out. Still, if I had to bet, I'd say that since FBB, can use in STF/CTF escort fleet. Why else have FBB designation? However, for branching, slow speed is slow speed = can't use her if a fast fleet required. Like I posted above, it's a half-measure in terms of game application. Could be wrong though. Let's see how it turns out.


    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  5. #205
    Commander Laforet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    296
    Rep
    79
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    @goesto11

    Kongo class BBs were unable to equip AP shells until the update on 28 July 2014. Previously the devs had to code an exception for all 3 variants of Bismarck which were also type 8 but had no such restriction. A similar situation existed where BBVs were not allowed to equip searchlights for no obvious reason until Yamashiro K2 came out with searchlight as her default equipment. In both cases it was a mess.

    Since then, the only mechanism still obeying ship type definition is the combined fleet in which the escort fleet only allows type 8 BBs. Elsewhere all battleships appear to be treated the same. For example, Warspite does not count towards completion of quest Bm4 because the quest track specific ships, rather than type 10 or "slow" battleships as a whole. And speed-dependent branching follows the actual speed, rather than ship category, just as a previous poster suggested that CVL could be fast or slow.

    The 27 knot rule comes from the observation that Yamato (27kt) and Ryuuhou (26.5kt) are slow while Kaga (28kt) and Chitose (29kt) are fast. If they were to introduce KGV and SD now then the former is likely to be fast whereas the latter is slow, and there are reasons to believe that the devs take this rule seriously (more on this later).

    At the end of the day, putting Gangut in type 8 could be a genuine mistake and if that's the case we can expect a fix fairly soon. Back in August 2015, Mizuho was incorrectly designated as fast despite the fact that she could only make 22 knots historically, and this was patched immediately post-event much to the chagrin of those who haven't had a chance to level her up at 5-4. Alternatively if the decision was an intentional balancing act, it is still justifiable given the fact there are no rules prohibiting type 8 battleships to be slow, as the game does not discriminate slow and fast BBs on a superficial level.


    Last edited by Laforet; 05-04-2017 at 06:21 AM.

  6. #206
    Captain CaptainCoxwagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    434
    Rep
    34
    Mentioned
    92 Post(s)
    @goesto11 Traditionally in the Royal Navy, Fast Battleships referred to the Queen Elizabeth class, where the double innovation of the increase to a 15 inch gun meant only 4 turrets were required to have more broadside weight then previous battleships and the introduction of Oil fired boilers meant that the ship was believed to be able to reach 25 knots, which was the speed of a battlecruiser of the time. It was never a formal designation and the Royal Navy was still split between it's Battleships and Battlecruisers based on the ground of what they were laid down as, although the HMS Hood was on many occasions referred to as the first modern Fast Battleship, owing to her thick armour and 30 knot speed. The USN never built battlecruisers, and had little interest in speed until the Iowa class were designed specifically to deal with the perceived threat the Kongous posed, which in wargaming simulations caused a headache as they outgunned anything they could catch, and outran anything it couldn't, in particular they were believed to be a credible threat to carrier groups.

    The IJN dispensed with the battlecruiser designation, probably because they knew that they were going to be in the battleline when the time comes like the regular battleships, and because Japanese battleships were designed to be faster then any contemporary battleship in any case (Yamato was originally planned to have a 32 knot speed, this was cut down as she was already excessively large).

    Gangut was planned with high speed in mind over armour so she is arguably a battlecruiser in concept. She did reach 24 knots with mixed boilers, theoretically with oil boilers and new machinery she could hit 28 knots, but that would before she gets a torpedo bulge which she seriously needs as well as a major firecontrol upgrade, topside AA equipment, deck armour etc. As it is her stats are heavily inflated, largely resembling the planned Izmail battlecruiser (which would also be slow in KC, being 26 knots).

    But really, it seems to be they really tried to make her useful but couldn't justify making her fast, so just the designation was left. In stark contrast to Aquila which should be a CVL but made into a CV to ensure that Italians remained a joke. KGV and NC should both be fast battleships, being that they are above the 28 knots line that SD and Yamato are just under.

    PS If underwater torps are fair game for torpedo stats, then i want kongous to hav their 8 back. Either that or maek Kongou kai 3 under this design http://i.imgur.com/yvJPhM0.jpg


    "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today," Admiral David Beatty, 1st Earl Beatty. Battle of Jutland, 1916

  7. #207
    Marshal Admiral KotoNano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    IGN
    ことなの
    Server
    Iwagawa Breakfield
    Posts
    11,464
    Rep
    46
    Mentioned
    7828 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by goesto11 View Post
    (A) WOW are some players F A S T. Already got Gangut and remodeld to level 75 for Gangut dva!? (B) My speculation about a torp stat was correct (*pats self on back* :P). Torp stat is higher than I expected while FP in at DVA at my minimum expected level. Overall, bit more total NB power than I would have guessed. No Bismarck Drei (shouldn't be), but not bad at all. FBB classification certainly makes a difference, but eh, I still think that's not really correct. Official designation can vary, but FWIW, I've always thought of 30kn as benchmark for FBB, and Gangut ain't close. Have to look up & double check, but I thought FBB was more of a post WWI thing anyway. Would North Carolina Class, South Dakota class and/or King George V class be FBB? I would think so if Gangut qualifies. At any rate, it's a slow BB by WWII standards, but again, game is game and FBB makes her more useful for the game. She has more NB firepower than Iowa at a MUCH lower cost (so does Bismarck Drei for that matter. [insert rant about Iowa's cost]).

    As for criticism of the event, "good rewards/ships" vs. "bad rewards/ships" are just two sides of the same subjective coin. Given the stats that are coming out, have to say Gangut looks better than I would have expected. Again, same goes for Gangut's guns. Devs do seem to like SU ships. Anyway, I don't think the rewards for this event are bad, but... I DO take issue with 4 new ships as drops, one of which is that "oiler without paper armor" and all three of the new ship class which may prove useful later. JMO, but too much new ship farming. Equipment rewards for E-1 to E-3 are... OK. I think you could have made one of the coastal defense ships an E-2 reward or E-4 reward as well. We are getting some nice LBAS fighter escorts. Double edge sword for me. Nice to have, but now looks like my improvement investment in Type 0 M21 Skilled has been rendered pointless. >_> Less so since can still use on CV, but Type 0 M52 Skilled +10 isn't looking so hot now either. Also, just upgraded a second tankhatsu for this event, and now we get a better tankhatsu. There's 5 improve mats pissed away. [/rant]

    Point is that for each player there are good and bad things with any event, and while I agree with you that the ships & rewards are not really that bad (some pretty good), this event's not flawless either. YMMV

    - - - Updated - - -
    @NanashiYoukai: Wait, I missed that. So she's a Fast Battleship with slow speed. HowTF does that work? At any rate, yeah, slow speed is a limitation. Devs went half and half with this. Can use in Combined Fleet 2nd fleet due to FBB designation, but no good for fast fleet only maps.
    I haven't seen anyone actually have her but considering her relatively low K2 level (75) using PvP and having her flag 3-2 on repeat non-stop it's entirely possible that one or two dedicated players have her 75 already. I mean it only took me 12~13 hours to get pola to late-80's after I got her.
    If we go by 30kn as FBB designation, that'd be a reasonable assumption to go with honestly and I kinda agree with it looking at the speed of the ships on average.
    However QE was a proto-FBB, as in she was designed to be faster and for a WWI ship and she was technically faster than gangut which is why the distinction is weird to me: If Gangut counts as a slow-speed FBB then QE should too really. Perhaps it's really the battlecrusier label that makes the difference?
    Actually a way to check would be if she can be put in the escort fleet of a combined fleet, if she can then there's the advantage of FBB designation even if she's "slow" speed. The game does make a distinction between them (and seperates the two BB types when you sort them, at least it does for me)

    about the speed thing I can understand what you're saying, if we lower it to 27kn as "fast" speed BB all the ones you used as reference would be fast and so would Yamato which would be silly in terms of game mechanics. Although if it is 28kn as @Laforet some of your examples would be fast-speed.


    I won't disagree with the drop thing at all though, 4/6 ships as drops is rather peculiar. with 6 ships I would of expected at least 3 of them to be clear rewards, it's how it usually goes. Winter was 2:2 for reward/drop, so was Fall and Summer as all three of those events only added 4 ships.
    Summer 2015 was the last event to add six ships. Kawakaze, Hayasui, Libbecio and Teruzuki where all clear rewards with Mizuho and Kazagumo as drops. Of course that was a 7 map event to this ones 5-map, but they could of at least given 3 clear rewards. (E1,E3 and E5)

    I mean the rewards (clear and ship drops) are good it's just a bizarre reversal of normal behaviour in rewards ships/drop ship ratio which is a pretty sour taste with how much farming it demands.
    I don't think your upgraded fighters are a waste yet, since if even on full hard clear it's only two 7-range interceptors, so for 3 land bases with a single fighter cover you'd still need a 7 range fighter.

    Overall though the events pretty dire (lol E-4.) and as a streamer point out, their is a lot of reused BGM on the event ontop of the questionable CGs makes this event feel really low quality.
    And the whole "lul high armor SSHime E-1" garbage pisses me off. IT missed me off a year ago and it pisses me off now.


    Last edited by KotoNano; 05-04-2017 at 06:35 AM.

    Will only return for Yuzuki.

  8. #208
    Kantai Analyst 211303's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    IGN
    Harold
    Server
    Lingga
    Posts
    8,118
    Rep
    247
    Mentioned
    5454 Post(s)


    @goesto11 @NanashiYoukai
    Yeah, as suspected, you can put her in escort fleet despite her being a slow ship.


    2 out of 0 members found this post helpful.
    The sexiest bridge ever made.

  9. #209
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Server
    Paramushir Anchorage
    Posts
    4,956
    Rep
    174
    Mentioned
    1649 Post(s)
    Thanks for the replies/info everyone.

    @Laforet: OK that clears up a lot of things. The no AP shells on Kongou class was before my time. As for BBV & searchlights, didn't realize that either. Don't think I've ever put a searchlight on a BBV. You're probably right about the 27kn "breakpoint" for the game in terms of fast/slow. Certainly fits. Wonder if the devs round up on that (i.e. 27.5kn = "fast").

    LOL, I didn't consider FBB might have been a mistake. Probably should have after the level 1 Yamashiro Kai ni drop (would have loved to get one two). As for Gangut, just have to see what the final tally is for stats, designation/use in combined fleets, etc. If nothing else, either way, at least she'll be useful which is important. :D

    @CaptainCoxwagle: I'm not all that familiar with WWI stuff, but I did see that QE-class is listed as the first "fast battleship" of the Dreadnought era on the Wikipedia "fast battleship" page. So... not sure why Gangut would be designated an FBB and Warspite not. 'Tis puzzling unless devs just doing what they want. FBB does make Gangut more usable even with slow speed. Not as much as fast speed of course, but some. Agree about stats being higher than one would expect. Again, I can only surmise that devs wanted to make her usable (or they just like them some SU BB). Also agree about Aquila CV rather than CVL designation is NOT doing her any favors. :/ Is there a more useless capital ship in the game? SMH *pats Aquila on head*

    As for the torp stat, my initial reasoning was not just that RL version had them, but I figured low (for a BB) FP for Gangut and having a torp stat would help balance things out. It's like the Italian CA torps. Now firepower for Italian CA isn't bad (great for CA with Zara due), but still not nearly enough to match up with other CA when it comes to NB. Still, per above, devs were certainly kind. Anyway, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't think the torps were removed on Gangut. As for Kongou class, I would think any torp stat would be for the default version, maybe Kai, but not Kai ni as torps were ultimately removed during reconstruction. I'm not familiar with the image you posted. What are the stats/armament for that? Seems like only two main guns, but a lot of smaller triple guns.

    As for USN BB, my understanding is that the North Carolina class, the first USN FBBs, were a response to Kongou-class speed, not Iowa class which came after both NC class and SD class. Iowa class highest FBB speed (the design changed a lot early on) was a product of USN desire to have a FBB which could truly keep up with CV groups. That was the big thing about Iowa class and a primary intended role - CV escort, and why the USN still built Iowa class, but decided to stop construction of Montana class (counter part to Yamato class). Age of the CV and all that.

    As for "fast battleship", yeah, there is no real RL speed requirement for designation. Both North Carolina class and South Dakota class were considered fast BB by the USN (unless Wikipedia is wrong - can happen & don't have time to cross check). You're right about in terms of the game. With 27kn cut off, SD class would still be slow unless IDK, it was faster in speed trials and speed trials count (since apparently Nagato class speed trial was used for the benchmark. Stats do vary among sources, but Wikipedia has 26kn for Nagato class full speed).

    Wiki has Montana class full speed was/would have been 28kn so would we have a BB that is fast, but not an FBB (hypothetical question - highly doubt Montana class ever makes into the game. Don't know if I'd give it a 1% chance)? Oh, a 32kn Yamato class would have been insane (awesomely so). Also highly doubt making it into the game, but how about Alaska class CB? Definitely a large cruiser, but not really a battlecruiser IMO. So still a CA or something else?

    Well, looks like some testing has come out and slow fast battleship, apparently Gangut is. Right or wrong, not the first time devs have been inconsistent or done something one might consider counterintuitive (or even illogical).

    @KotoNano: Well, I'm not a true hard core player so it does amaze me from time to time how fast some players level up ships. Probably have a Gangut dva waifu by tomorrow. Per above, don't know what to say about Gangut vs. QE-class. Now that it's show you can use Gangut in STF escort fleet (ala FBB), all I can think of is it's a way to make the ship more useful in the game ala adding phantom torps to some ships. It's arguably inconsistent and perhaps even unnecessary, but is what it is. As for the game's "fast speed" breakpoint, it does seem that over 27kn is the benchmark (not sure if devs round up or not in this case). I guess it's fine vs. IDK, 28kn, 29kn or even 30kn?

    Ah, just remembered this. The discussion reminds me of something similar with tanks in WWII. Designation was really by intended role. You could have some surprisingly light "Medium" or "Heavy" tanks.

    As for the drops. I'm with you 100%. I'm missing one ship (Asakaze) which thankfully drops at E-2 where there's another farming target. Still, this is too much. EASILY could have made another ship a reward so it's 50/50, though IMO Summer 2015 got it right with 4 rewards & two drops. OR...uh, just don't introduce so many ships. I want some new ship, but I'd also like more Kai ni remodels. Haven't checked, but my guess is new ship introductions are outpacing kai ni remodels. Ships like Gamgut with "built in Kai ni" are rare.

    Re. BGM, I'm fine with reusing some of that - as long as I like the music :P. CGIs though should be good. Higher armor SS Hime isn't fun, but with enough OASW ships, not bad. I cleared E-1 Hard easily. Guessingn the new ASW equipment will provide a boost as well, though usual troll "Here some equipment that would have helped you clear an earlier map".

    I've barely started and will be mired in farming E-2 & E-3... and *sigh* E-4 as well. So far that's really my biggest issue with this event. ALL THREE of the new coastal defense ships are drops. Can't even give players ONE? Meh, Absolutely should have been 3 reward & 3 drop/go farm.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @211303: Thanks for checking that out. Welp, that's that. We have our first official slow fast battleship. Sasuga devs.


    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  10. #210
    Admiral dandan550's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    IGN
    Trickster
    Server
    Palau Anchorage
    Posts
    6,057
    Rep
    5
    Mentioned
    3128 Post(s)
    Same here. At least I can understood how this whole shens can go.


    Lord Paramount of the High Gardens. [Flower Knights pomf'ed: 161]
    Flower Knight Girl ID: 221329971 (DMM)
    Shiratsuyu-Girls:
    Shiratsuyu, Shigure, Murasame, Yuudachi, Harusame, Samidare, Umikaze, Yamakaze, Kawakaze, Suzukaze


 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT. The time now is 11:14 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2
Copyright © 2019 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 6.67%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.3 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Thread / Post Bookmarks provided by Thread / Post Bookmarking v1.1.1pl1 (Free) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Live Threads provided by AJAX Threads (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Skin By: PurevB.com