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  1. #131
    Admiral goesto11's Avatar
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    @firemagnet: That's on the list along with 3? 4? others. LOL. I forgot the shows I was watching. XD Maybe try to marathon a bunch of shows this weekend or something.


    Thanks to Arkayda for the signature.


  2. #132
    Captain Kranesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firemagnet View Post
    Indeed, but only in a narrow sense. Painting herself as the "hero" of "her" story through acceptance was only ever a means for revenge, by using acceptance as a means to destroy existence. She doubtlessly never intended to defeat her own goal entirely, as she seems set to do in the forthcoming episode. episode one, of all things, is effectively confirming what is about to happen. Souta's lines at the beginning of that episode, right after Setsuna's sucide, say it all, and are partially repeated in the preview "I might be you. Or I might not be you. I'm sure I'm somewhere close to you, though. "My dear sibling." If I were use her words, that's how I'd explain it....I think that she was the main character. That is, if the main character is what you call the person at the center of events."


    In Japanese, "my dear sibling" is "waga itoshiki kyoudai." The only person who speaks in formal Japanese like that within the show is Altair. That he reflects positively upon her means that, in the end, she redeems herself and becomes a hero through the power of the audience. This means that we have Magane setup as the penultimate villain.

    The Preview for episode 21 states: "I might be you. Or i might not be you. I'm sure i'm somewhere close to you, though...I'm sure that there was a miracle, and that there a story that surpassed all stories.

    Of course, this could be Souta being an unreliable narrator, but the chances of that are now extremely low.
    That really connects the dots, thanks a lot, I nearly have forgotten that Souta actually said something pretty important back at episode 1, seems that finally we're reaching the full cricle at last.




  3. #133
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kranesh View Post
    That really connects the dots, thanks a lot, I nearly have forgotten that Souta actually said something pretty important back at episode 1, seems that finally we're reaching the full cricle at last.
    Just so. However, the episode got delayed until Sunday at 23:50 JST due to some sort of special.

    (ノ o益o)ノ 彡 ┻━┻

    No clue as to whether or not Amazon will still air the episode on Saturday, though.



  4. #134
    Captain Kranesh's Avatar
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    @firemagnet Hey, at least it wasn't delayed till next week XD




  5. #135
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kranesh View Post
    @firemagnet Hey, at least it wasn't delayed till next week XD
    fair enough.



  6. #136
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Episode 21 was......................not what I expected. While I can say that the extended reunion between Altair and Setsuna was probably necessary, especially since it was the only option the creators had left, it could have been executed a lot better.

    Part of the problem lies with Altair, particularly in how this episode handles her as a character.

    Simply put, Altair is never given enough screentime to show her as sympathetic. It's suggested lightly in episode 15, but that's all. In fact, episode 15 is the first time we see Altair expressing affection for anything other than the memories of Setsuna that she carries within her.

    At all other times, she's shown to be what amounts to the perfect villain: viciously intelligent and outwardly charming, a quasi-sociopath who lies to get what she wants and expertly manipulates both friend and foe towards her ideal outcome.

    In the times her mask slips, we, the audience, are presented with a bitter and narcissistic young woman who desperately seeks an audience to assuage the hatred, sorrow, and pain which birthed her. She glories in the attention and power she receives, and grows increasingly sadistic, petty, and vengeful as her strength increases.

    In every way, she is a reflection of the ugliness in Setsuna's heart that birthed and drives her. Worse yet, at some point she actively began disobeying Setsuna; episode 3 has her speaking to whatever is left of the original Setsuna, saying:

    "...Setsuna, I met Souta again. To think that our destinies would intertwine once more. Yes, it's unfortunate. But remember: he's part of the world that hurt and rejected you. Until the end of this world, I will always be your ally."

    None of this lines up with who we are presented in episode 21, after fully four episodes of brutal combat. In that time, Altair has directly or indirectly killed three characters and gloried in their deaths. Another two sit at death's door, their fate unclear. From this, we are shown Altair breaking down into distraught wreck as she first rages, then tries to kill a recreation of her own creator, and then finally pours her black little heart out. All she wanted was justice, she claims, and for this Setsuna--now the genuine article thanks to reuniting with the memories carried by Altair--absolves her of guilt.

    A teachable moment where Setsuna speaks about what it means to create is then buried when Altair literally gets to hit the ball of of the park having a completely unexpected revelation that she, too, can create; she then proceeds to become possibly the most powerful character in all the multiverses by creating not one but potentially an infinite series of worlds for her and her creator and then physically escaping into them along with Setsuna. As such, instead of Altair being left with the lesson that her powers have limits and that she ought to accept the world rather than destroy it, she is told that she's fine as who she is, that the audience will accept her for what they believe she represents, and that even though Setsuna likely told her to stop, she knows her creator "better than herself" and that everything's ok.

    This sequence completely removes Altair from any responsibility or consequences of her actions thus far as she effectively throws in the towel and runs off to yuri heaven with her creator. Worse, involves none of the other characters present, including Hikayu, Blitz and Rui, as well as Yuuya and Syo, both of whom are apparently left to bleed out for 18 minutes.

    Long story short, Altair is not shown to grow until the end of the series, by which time it is far, far, too late. Were this but a pause in a longer saga reaching out to 32 episodes, wrapping up with the fate of the creations and Magane's own plans (which as of yet have not been developed), this would be a logical and cathartic reunion, placing Altair into storage until her strength would be needed to counter Magane's own plans for world domination as expressed by her "great miracle emperor plan." This would give the audience a chance to see Altair grow into a character and have to earn trust with the other creations' for whose suffering she is responsible.

    Instead we get this ending which, while emotionally satisfying for many, is about as logical story-wise as suddenly having a 3P orgy between Altair, Setsuna, and Souta; it nullifies the canonical and emotional value of the deaths of characters in previous episodes and--most importantly--wrecks the value of Altair as a character by making all previous effort seem pointless. This ending could easily be construed as her ultimate goal in the first place given that she basically got exactly what she wanted in spite of the protagonists' best efforts. A villain-sue, in short.


    Last edited by firemagnet; 09-11-2017 at 12:40 AM.

  7. #137
    Captain Kranesh's Avatar
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    @firemagnet I pretty much was expecting this to be honest, Altair suffered from the Madara syndrome, when an antagonist is so powerful that not even the creators of the story have no idea how to stop it. Bringing Setsuna back to tell her to stop was a cowardly move but it was the last resort considering that she's the only one who could stop Altair in a sense and the only person in the world that she would listen to, of course Altair could have pulled the "YOU'RE A FAKER AND YOU MUST DIE!" stunt but she didn't, why was that? Because Altair's drive, her whole reason for doing all such horrible things in the name of her creator would have been meaningless, it would have shown that Altair was just as bad as the people that drove Setsuna to kill herself, Altair was fully aware that it was a dirty move by Souta but attacking Setuna would have proven the point that her as a character (an anti-hero in a crusade no less) was a shallow character without a true objective, so she decided to stay loyal to her objectives and ideals in the end.

    Hence why instead of destroying Altair, Setsuna was created to calm a vengeful god, there was no other way to stop her and I'm pretty sure the audience who were watching the Elimination Chamber desired that Altair went for somekind of redemption arc instead of seeing her defeated and bleeding out on the ground. This episode was literally just Setuna and Altair talking, convincing everyone that this had to be done in order to save the world, everyone knew that bringing Setsuna was cheating but they accepted that fact because they somehow wanted a different ending for her.

    For me this was a beautiful episode where Altair opened to her creator and the world, she stopped being a merciless killing machine in order to become a creator of worlds, when Altair and Setsuna were on the water it was such a powerful scene between a mother a her child more than a creator and his creation, Altair decided to make a world were both of them could be gods and live happily for the rest of their lives and it even shows that Altair changed her ways when she summoned the violin instead of a gun, that subtle action had a strong message that she was ready to create instead of destoy, she created music and from that music an infinite world was born.

    And yes we know that Altair was a monster, she killed and destroyed but at the same time it's understandable because of the circumstances that happened and thanks to her conversation with Setsuna she was able to come to an understanding, they both managed to understood each other, close the wounds and forgive... it was really beautiful to see such interaction between them. Altair in the end stood yet again against the world itself, against it's laws in order to save the most precious person in the entire universe, she finally found kindness and love, hence why she decided to create another universe so that Setsuna's story could be written so that Setsuna could write Altair's story! How crazy is that? a story being created in a story of a story in a universe created by a fictional character... it has so many layers that it's nuts and I love it XD

    Now about Souta, everyone was trashing at him during the majority of the show till we learn about what happened between him and Setsuna, but creating Setsuna for this final battle had so much meaning because the created Setsuna is literally the real Setsuna, that shows that he finally managed to caught up to her level as a creator, he can finally say that he's able to walk by her side again without shame. Even when he felt that he was his cause of death, Setsuna told him during the glasses scene literally "Don't blame yourself and don't worry for I am happy because I had the chance to meet you" and thanks to this Souta was able to finally move on, he really need such closure for his tormet and he finally got it.

    Overally a really good episode in my opinion, can't wait for the epilogue and what's gonna happen with Magane, I honestly hope for a S2 focused entirely on Altair and Setsuna in their own world... but oh well, let's see what happens XD

    p.s: Also, we finally know why Altair was created, not as a vengeful tool that Setsuna wanted to unleash against the world... but as a character that she wanted to show to Souta.

    And in regards of Syo and the others wounded/bleeding out, by this point they are pretty much just secondary characters since Altair hijacked the spotlight, the audience knows this so they don't mind at all XD


    Last edited by Kranesh; 09-11-2017 at 02:06 PM.


  8. #138
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kranesh View Post
    @firemagnet I pretty much was expecting this to be honest, Altair suffered from the Madara syndrome, when an antagonist is so powerful that not even the creators of the story have no idea how to stop it. Bringing Setsuna back to tell her to stop was a cowardly move but it was the last resort considering that she's the only one who could stop Altair in a sense and the only person in the world that she would listen to, of course Altair could have pulled the "YOU'RE A FAKER AND YOU MUST DIE!" stunt but she didn't, why was that? Because Altair's drive, her whole reason for doing all such horrible things in the name of her creator would have been meaningless, it would have shown that Altair was just as bad as the people that drove Setsuna to kill herself, Altair was fully aware that it was a dirty move by Souta but attacking Setuna would have proven the point that her as a character (an anti-hero in a crusade no less) was a shallow character without a true objective, so she decided to stay loyal to her objectives and ideals in the end.

    Hence why instead of destroying Altair, Setsuna was created to calm a vengeful god, there was no other way to stop her and I'm pretty sure the audience who were watching the Elimination Chamber desired that Altair went for somekind of redemption arc instead of seeing her defeated and bleeding out on the ground. This episode was literally just Setuna and Altair talking, convincing everyone that this had to be done in order to save the world, everyone knew that bringing Setsuna was cheating but they accepted that fact because they somehow wanted a different ending for her.

    For me this was a beautiful episode where Altair opened to her creator and the world, she stopped being a merciless killing machine in order to become a creator of worlds, when Altair and Setsuna were on the water it was such a powerful scene between a mother a her child more than a creator and his creation, Altair decided to make a world were both of them could be gods and live happily for the rest of their lives and it even shows that Altair changed her ways when she summoned the violin instead of a gun, that subtle action had a strong message that she was ready to create instead of destoy, she created music and from that music an infinite world was born.

    And yes we know that Altair was a monster, she killed and destroyed but at the same time it's understandable because of the circumstances that happened and thanks to her conversation with Setsuna she was able to come to an understanding, they both managed to understood each other, close the wounds and forgive... it was really beautiful to see such interaction between them. Altair in the end stood yet again against the world itself, against it's laws in order to save the most precious person in the entire universe, she finally found kindness and love, hence why she decided to create another universe so that Setsuna's story could be written so that Setsuna could write Altair's story! How crazy is that? a story being created in a story of a story in a universe created by a fictional character... it has so many layers that it's nuts and I love it XD

    Now about Souta, everyone was trashing at him during the majority of the show till we learn about what happened between him and Setsuna, but creating Setsuna for this final battle had so much meaning because the created Setsuna is literally the real Setsuna, that shows that he finally managed to caught up to her level as a creator, he can finally say that he's able to walk by her side again without shame. Even when he felt that he was his cause of death, Setsuna told him during the glasses scene literally "Don't blame yourself and don't worry for I am happy because I had the chance to meet you" and thanks to this Souta was able to finally move on, he really need such closure for his tormet and he finally got it.

    Overally a really good episode in my opinion, can't wait for the epilogue and what's gonna happen with Magane, I honestly hope for a S2 focused entirely on Altair and Setsuna in their own world... but oh well, let's see what happens XD

    p.s: Also, we finally know why Altair was created, not as a vengeful tool that Setsuna wanted to unleash against the world... but as a character that she wanted to show to Souta.

    And in regards of Syo and the others wounded/bleeding out, by this point they are pretty much just secondary characters since Altair hijacked the spotlight, the audience knows this so they don't mind at all XD
    Overall, the episode is OK. And for me the emotional reunion was brilliant to watch. I just feel like I'm left with too many questions. It feels too clean, and Altair's revelation of love and kindness just feels too forced. I absolutely love the scene with Altair and Setsuna on the water, and very nearly broke down when Souta breaks down in tears, because I've been there and understand exactly how he feels. It's just the part where Altair saves Setsuna that bothers me. It's just too much, too perfect, and it clashes too much with her character as established over the past 20 episodes to let me willingly suspend by disbelief. I saw it coming from miles away, but suddenly being able to create entirely new worlds? .................................................. ................................... It makes me feel like "what's the point?"

    Had this moment come earlier, I would probably be more accepting. But there are just too many questions left to answer, particularly in relation to Magane, that are left up in the air which can't be solved in the span of the next episode.

    Don't get me wrong: Altair is by far my favorite character, and I love her. But I would much rather she and Setsuna had stayed in order to wrap things up with Magane over another 2-3 episodes as opposed to simply throwing in the towel and running away from the world.


    Last edited by firemagnet; 09-11-2017 at 06:51 PM.

  9. #139
    Captain Kranesh's Avatar
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    @firemagnet We just need to wait how the epilogue will be, remember that this show loves to surprises us so I'm pretty sure this whole issue between createds and creators is not over yet, that somehow Altair was just the tip of the iceberg... saturday can't come soon enough XD




  10. #140
    Rear-Admiral firemagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kranesh View Post
    @firemagnet We just need to wait how the epilogue will be, remember that this show loves to surprises us so I'm pretty sure this whole issue between createds and creators is not over yet, that somehow Altair was just the tip of the iceberg... saturday can't come soon enough XD
    Yep. I do hope the series does well enough in sales to get another season with Magane as the primary villain, and Altair has to step in again. A match between those two would be excellent, because Magane is the only one who can really match altair by baiting her.

    And yes, if the pain and suffering of one person can give birth to a character who is all but a physical god in the "real-world," then this is surely the tip of the iceberg for the world of Re:Creators.


    Last edited by firemagnet; 09-11-2017 at 10:17 PM.

 

 

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