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  1. #191
    Marshal Admiral ofi123's Avatar
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    @DLRevan

    The issue lies in the HE alpha and fire chance difference being so big that in other battleships their HE is so bad that even using AP to get overpens can have similar overall damage output. But in Conqueror unless you face a potato team that consistently give you broadside to citadel, even with the normal couple of citadel it's overall higher in damage to use HE throughout the game given British's weaker AP.


    AP being powerful is one thing, but that still requires skill in target selection and aiming for damage. But HE doesn't require that effort. I have gotten 2 fires with 1 hit out of 12 shells with Conqueror.




    Piuy is the boss.

  2. #192
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    Fires and Fire Damage was a thing long before Conqueror ever appeared in the design discussions for WG. What I am really surprised about is how people are talking like it's a new thing. Some BBs were actually pretty good at that job also before RN BBs but all that got lost in the "AP Only" BB era. Then a BB line appears where the shell selection is opposite of what the traditional BB lines do, and the BB players are crying about it, all while they're still AP'ing the shit out of Cruisers.



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  3. #193
    Marshal Admiral ofi123's Avatar
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    @M.A.Mitscher

    It's not a new thing. But it's the damage being multiplied with this way of play that allows little for the target to mitigate the damage no matter what prevention he takes. Previously BB HE isn't that strong to the point of just using HE deals more damaging than using AP. This is similar to the early days of USN CVs having 2 TBs and DD torpedo stealth, there's little one can do not to get nuked no matter your skill level.




    Piuy is the boss.

  4. #194
    Vice-Admiral M.A.Mitscher's Avatar
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    @ofi123 Nothing is wrong with it. You know why? Because BBs are the only ones seeing it. Look at the numbers WG put out in target selection. Conqueror targets almost exclusively BBs. The other BBs are looking for Cruisers to instant-delete. The cost for / against your team is that very dangerous Cruisers like Zao, Hindenburg, etc. get a free pass.

    Eating HE & Fires? It's the same as if you got a Zao or Hindenburg attacking you. The difference is Zao and Hindy, the CAs do it faster.

    And when you look at the entire picture, it all equates just fine. It's all been talked about going from WG's stats.
    https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/139491-conqueror-analysis/

    Conqueror is an oversized Cruiser, down to the target selection. You deal with the fires the same as always.

    And as I've said before, as a Cruiser Main, I like seeing Conquerors on the opposing team : )



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  5. #195
    Marshal Admiral ofi123's Avatar
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    @M.A.Mitscher

    It's the ignoring of "play well and get rewarded" for all other ships that's the problem. Conqueror just don't care.

    The reason is simple. Overall Conqueror HE deals more damage than her AP. This literally discourage people from using AP, even with expert loader you still need to wait over 10 seconds. And with the fires and lack of DPM most people will focus on shooting on BBs first.
    But you know, Conqueror still does have instant cruiser deletion capabilities and can do it better with her concealment. But with how effective her HE is there's almost no incentive to play like a Montana of waiting for a broadside and fire from stealth.

    As someone to plays all the classes, Conqueror is literally the best and worst class to face. Against a potato they die fast, but against a player with a half decent skill level that HE salvo is more worrisome than AP salvo unless I am in Gearing or Groz. As a cruiser you do need someone to draw her attention like fighting all other battleships, but if it's a 1 on 1 even with kiting Conqueror (with a decent player) is actually the hardest to deal with due to HE and fire being so healable and that the HE breaking modules and causing fire(s) with even a single hit unlike just eating a single AP pen.

    Anyway, you arguing of nothing is wrong because BBs are the only ones seeing it can be applied to USN CV 2 TB setup. Very literally. Yes DDs will have a hard time but that's the similar as Conqueror taking out 1/3 to 1/2 their HP in a salvo considering how long USN TBs refuel.




    Piuy is the boss.

  6. #196
    Vice-Admiral DLRevan's Avatar
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    @ofi123 I can say is this "multiplication" is mostly in your head, the same way many 'experienced' players said to me long ago that taking early 2016 versions of demo expert had a 'real' effect in gameplay, or some other things along those lines. The performance is better, so its much more comfortable to use, or rather making use of it is more obvious to the player.

    Do people even know where to shoot other battleships with battleship HE shells? How often do they even try? How many know Frederich as a target is the only T8-10 battleship which Conq has a significantly greater advantage over than other battleships due to her HE mechanics, besides the greater HE damage and fire chance? Let's not even talk about cruisers. No cruiser can tank any battleship's HE damage.

    Guys like Flamu play efficiently, and through experience they can maximize the potential of a given style pf play. But like like any other game with complex mechanics and competitive gameplay, game balance is as much affected by player mentality as actual hard stats. People haven't, for example, realized yet that Fire Prevention works better against battleship shells than destroyer or cruiser shells. Of course, since the vast majority of battleship players never seriously used HE before now, it didn't matter. Or that the difference between Yamato's and Conq's fire chance isn't ~30%, its roughly half that, as are the actual fire chances.

    The issue lies with the way people are playing and perceiving things. Frankly, I thought of not even bothering to answer you this much when you said other battleships' HE is "so bad". One thing I will submit is that battleship HE in general is actually really good, and highlights why the fire mechanic is an exercise in poor game design from day 1 of this game. Regardless of ship type, it has always been a disproportionately easily used and abused mechanic, one that is only mildly satisfying for the user, while terribly annoying for the receiver. That is the real problem Conqueror is showing us.


    Frankly, even if I'm wrong and what you say is true, I wouldn't even touch the HE chance and HE damage. I'd let her keep it for national flavor and raise her citadel so she has to take bigger risks to fire all her guns.


    Last edited by DLRevan; 10-15-2017 at 01:31 AM.
    Murakumo 17th June 2015
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  7. #197
    Marshal Admiral ofi123's Avatar
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    @DLRevan

    Well, I can admit "multiplication" may be too strong of a word. Maybe I should have used "obvious" since comparing firing on angled ships the AP and HE of other BBs against AP and HE of Conqueror the difference between the them is plenty obvious.

    I don't recall calling for a nerf to HE specifically, but to the Conqueror. With the sub-par AP (still enough to delete cruisers and disable DDs), there's not much to nerf unless the AP is buffed.

    Personally I would want her surface concealment to be nerfed to be at or above Montana's. This will easily reduce the chance of her playing like a megazao and tail a DD into caps and disable any opposing capping DDs. Making her play zone a little further back won't affect much on her HE performance on BBs but will definitely affect her impact on the cap contest, similar to Henri. Not to mention MMMA (Make Montana Matters Again).

    A drop in her AA won't matter too much since it's super unlikely you can wither a Conqueror to death with a single strike like some other BBs. She can just eat the 2 or even 3 fires by a single squadron and save the repair until the torpedoes with her super heal.




    Piuy is the boss.

 

 

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